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Sardonic-Pain
Fanatic   Posts: 248 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/12/2007 at 02:21 PM |
| I have long since lost all faith in the judicial system. At a Young age I
was in and out of the courts due to an abusive step father and I thought I
would have learned by now that Justice is rarely served. Really the bit
about me being in and out of the courts holds little relevance to my rant
but I should have been more prepared none the less. Its not easy losing
anybody that you are close to, especially when they are taken from you
unexpectedly. Matthew Paris was 25 on his way home from his pizza delivery
job at around 2am-ish when he was killed instantly not even 40 ft. from his
front door by a drunk driver on March 11th of this year. Since the night he
was taken, that drunk driver has been walking the streets a free man. This
will be this guy's 2nd DUI charge. For the past 8 months court dates have
been pushed back and appeals have been made and a conflict of interests
brought up and here were are so very close to D-Day. The day that this SOB
finally gets his trial. At first he was going to plead not guilty to some
of the charges....mainly the aggravated manslaughter. But now that a plead
bargain has been thrown out on the table this guy decides Ok I'll plead
guilty now. And you know how much time he will be getting? 18 months. And
you know what's better...He will be out on work release during those 18
months. Just another nail in the coffin I do suppose. I think its extremely
unjust...But what is justice anymore? ____________________
My Life is like a porno-Without the sex-Just the weird music
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Monolycus
Fanatic  Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/12/2007 at 09:08 PM |
I believe in Nonjustice. The NonJustice Foundation's website appears to
have been taken down, which is a real shame. I'd love to decribe it at
length, but I'm running late right now. Anyway, here's this: <A
HREF="http://www.attorneykimmel.com/nonjustice.html">Nonjustice</A>
;
I'm sorry for your loss and hope that you are able to resolve your pain. ____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
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Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/12/2007 at 09:09 PM |
Huh. Somebody seems to have disabled HTML here. Just cut and paste
then.
http://www.attorneykimmel.com/nonjustice.html ____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
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Sardonic-Pain
Fanatic Posts: 248 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/12/2007 at 09:59 AM |
Nonjustice brings up good points. It being human nature to want justice its
hard to just take "The Middle Road". I do however understand that no matter
what, I am never going to think that this guy will ever get what I think he
deserves and therefore I should be content that he is getting anything at
all. I also hope that what he did that night will forever be burned into
his memory.
At any rate, there is a civil suit 2 days after the court trail. Between
now and then he can still choose to plea innocent but, its not likely. He's
getting too sweet of a deal. The civil suit is just another battle. Though
I'm sure we will win the true battle is between Matthew's parents and how
the money is divided.....thats a whole nother song and dance.
Nonjustice, I think is right though, we're only dragging out our own pain
and suffering trying to get some kind of retribution in a system that is
flawed with too many loop holes.
Whats the way to end this pain and suffering? Its simple! Just stop
persuing Justice! ____________________
My Life is like a porno-Without the sex-Just the weird music
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic   Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/12/2007 at 03:25 PM |
"All hurtful acts are motivated by the pursuit of justice. Hence, justice
is the primary cause of human-inflicted suffering in our world."
While the author makes a number of very good points, I have to take issue
with this quote... I think that is a blatant blanket statement that vastly
over-simplifies the issue. It is true that there is a huge amount of harm
done in the name of "justice". Mostly due to a misguided sense of justice,
such as feuding families, nations, and religions. Often someone wants to
avenge a percieved wrong that was never intended as such, and thus starts
an endless cycle of people seeking "justice". But there are are a
kajillion, at least, other reasons for a human to harm another. Some
people just get a kick out of it, from the bratty kid who likes to pick on
their younger sibling just to hear them squeal, to the psychopath who kills
for pleasure, to the tyrant who starts wars from a sheer lust for power.
Also, there is a difference (often confused) between justice and revenge,
that I think the author (and many people who have been wronged) misses.
Revenge is the desire to hurt the offender at least as deeply as he has
hurt the offended. Justice is the desire to see things made right, either
by preventing the offender from repeating his offense, or finding a way for
the offender to repair his offense.
Revenge is almost always negative - almost no one is ever benefitted by
revenge. Justice is very important, though, because otherwise people who
are dumb enough to drive drunk would never have it drilled into their
skulls that such actions cause hurt. Since drunk driving is such a selfish
action, many who do this don't really grasp the concept of the pain this
causes others, so they must be taught the pain/avoidance trigger some other
way. This is justice, not revenge.
As for our "justice system"... I agree, there is very rarely true justice
to be found there. It is unfortunate, but mostly unavoidable, since the
judicial system is based on laws, and laws are broad and sweeping and
designed for generalities, and never fit a specific case perfectly. Not to
mention the aspect of corruption or just plain apathy in the system.
It is unfortunate the true justice is almost never achieved. The fact is,
when it is achieved, it is almost always done in a spirit of love and care
for the offender - to teach rather than to punish. Even then, it depends
mostly on the offender's willingness to learn. Generally, it's necessary
to accept the fact that this is a cruel and unfair world, full of cruel and
unfair people who get away with it. And here is where the author is
wise... why punish yourself for someone else's misdeeds? Where is the
justice in that? Sometimes, you just have to accept that things will never
be made right. It hurts. It's infuriating. But it's true. Take a deep
breath, mourn your friend, do what you can to protect others from the same
fate, and then move on...
*hugs* I'm sorry, SP... I wish there could be a happy ending for you and
the others who are hurting with you. ____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/12/2007 at 04:09 PM |
I must add, though... there is certainly a huge amount of personal energy
involved in a situation such as yours, and it is unrealistic to expect to
be able to just let it all go with no resolution at all. You want to use
it for your friend in some way - right now you want justice, but may not be
able to achieve it.
Seems like there will almost certainly be a large amount of unresolved
energy left in this situation, not to mention the fact that you feel that
your friend's death should be honored and acknowledged as the very real
tragedy that it is.
The trick is to take that excess energy, and find a place to put it. Maybe
this drunk driver will not ever be held to a true concept of justice. But
there are other people out there - people at risk of the same fate as your
friend... the residual energy from this situation can be used to try to
protect them, perhaps... be poured into education for children about the
effects of driving drunk, so that perhaps some of them might be persuaded
not to do so... or maybe used to share with others who have gone through
similar loss, to help them heal and know they are not alone, or something
else... At any rate, the energies and impulses you feel are very real, very
powerful, and need to not be buried or denied as much as they need to not
get caught in fruitless desires for revenge.
I haven't gone through this particular situation, but I have experienced
what I felt to be deep injustice in my life, and that's what I found I had
to do - divert my energies from retaliation, and find them a new home.
*more hugs for SP* ____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
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Rogue
Member   Posts: 199 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/12/2007 at 06:08 PM |
| Luckily, justice does not rest exclusively nor primarily in the justice
system. When you affix "system" to something, you have to assume it is
less effective at whatever principle is before it than a self-regulating
chaotic arrangement would be. In this example, a responsible village or
tribe would have already dealt with the guilty without need for courts. If
the subjective principle of justice is served, this will happen in an
unpleasant and possibly poetic way. I try to make sure this happens as
much as possible in my own life, sometimes to my great detriment. ____________________
Plenty of time, my sweet. Plenty of time.
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Meranda_Jade
Fanatic  Posts: 511 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/12/2007 at 09:53 PM |
"All hurtful acts are motivated by the pursuit of justice. Hence, justice
is the primary cause of human-inflicted suffering in our world."
I actually take no issue with this quote. I find it to be profoundly
accurate. While the excuse to harm others differs, it always boils down to
the fact that an injustice is seen, and an attempt to rectify it is being
made.
The bratty kid picking on the younger sibling is doing so because they feel
maligned in some way, and are trying to even the score.
The psychopath killing for pleasure usually has a reason that makes
perfectly good sense to himself, and is usually seeking their own twisted
form of justice.
And the tyrant, lusting for power is also warring for the sake of his own
perspective of what "justice" means.
Justice: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by
the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited
rewards or punishments
Just: acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good
Justification :the act or an instance of justifying : vindication b:
something that justifies
Justify: to show a sufficient lawful reason for an act done
The thing is.. are we talking about justice... or justification?
Any act of harm always has to be justified in the mind of the person
commiting the act. Nobody ever wants to be the bad guy. Without the concept
of justification (which is an evil concept), it would be much more
difficult to bring yourself to do hurtful things. "But he started it!" "I
had a good reason." or, perhaps most insidious, "I just made a mistake." To
be able to mete out actual justice, one must be impartial, by definition. I
cannot imagine that someone who is truly impartial could ever bring about
harm, unless it is in the sense of "kill 'em all". Including himself. In
which case, that person would truly be a complete psycho. Even psychos have
a small sense of self-preservation, and thus, are not impartial.
So, nobody is ever perfectly impartial in the first place. Without
impartiality, "justice" by its definition, can never be served.
Let's look at the definition of "Just". acting or being in conformity with
what is morally upright or good.
Who decides what is morally upright or good? What is morally right to one
person is the deepest sin to another. What gives one the right to "mete
out rewards or punishments" ?
Locking up a drunk driver is not justice. Nor is it revenge. It is
containment, pure and simple. He committed a harmful act, and is a
potential danger to other people. Thus, containment is necessary. But
don't ever confuse it with "Justice". When you seek Justice, you are
seeking revenge, pure and simple. You are seeking revenge for the outrage
that offends your moral sensibilities.
In the case of the drunk driver, the most important thing to happen is for
him to understand that he has taken a life. If he has a shred of humanity,
he will feel the guilt for that for the rest of his life, and will punish
himself far more than any court of law ever could. Perhaps it will give him
the motivation to never drink again. If he justifies it to himself, telling
himself that he simply made a mistake, perhaps not. In either case, he has
committed a terrible act that he will have to live with for the rest of his
life, whether he acknowledges it consciously or not.
The guy can never make up for having taken a life. Whatever his punishment
is, it's something he will never be able to get away from.
That is Justice. ____________________
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dead-cell
Fanatic  Posts: 344 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/12/2007 at 11:11 PM |
All I can type for now is: I'm sorry the justice system let you down SP,
and so many others. What was meant to be a fair system can often be
corrupted. This guy must have been a good ol' boy to get such a light
sentence. If I had seen this sooner I would have suggested contacting
M.A.D.D. they usually put more pressure on courts for this kind of case.
It's a shame how this system has become so terrible, laughable, twisted,
and despised.
Big, big hugs SP ____________________
co-worker: "Your gay!?"
myself: "Didn't you see my rainbow pin?"
co-worker: "I just thought you liked skettles."
-(yes, it actually happened to me)
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/12/2007 at 04:07 AM |
No, I still disagree with the statement. I think partially, it boils down
to the difference between justice and justification, as you have noted. It
is possible for someone executing an act of hurt to justify their action,
but that is not their true reason for it, if only they would be truthful
with themselves. Also, I do think there are people out there who get
simple pleasure from inflicting pain... to the degree that it almost makes
a full circle to a form of innocence. Yes, often tyrants use "justice" as
an excuse to invade another country or oppress their own... often, though,
it is simple entitlement - if something is out there and they want it, then
they feel like they can take it. It's not justice as far as the notion of
settling a score. Although it is justification. Also there is the element
of simply being power-mad - a wish to instill fear in others... Another
reason for pain in the world is ignorance or thoughtlessness... actually
the drunk driver is a good example of that. He did not get behind the
wheel while intoxicated thinking about justice - in fact he probably did
not think at all. Or if he did, it was likely an "I'll be fine" or an "I
don't care." I almost think more harm is done by the "I don't care" frame
of mind than the "I'm going to even the score" frame of mind.
Often, the element of justification comes after the act... I'm sure this
drunk driver has spent considerable time trying to justify himself. Few
people can face their offenses head-on.
Locking someone up has an element of containment, of course, but often,
because it is an unpleasant experience, it is used as a sort of teaching
tool... the burn that comes from touching the hot stove... Only when
someone is incarcerated for life does the containment element come fully
into play, because only then is the offender never able to repeat his
offense. Ideally, a less-than-life sentence should teach the offender
never to do it again.
I could say more, but I need to go get ready for work. ____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and
the
/>
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
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Sardonic-Pain
Fanatic Posts: 248 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 7/12/2007 at 10:51 AM |
Really inside the judicial system justice is all Judge/Jury discretion. Go
into the courts on a day that a judge is having a bad day versus a good one
and you will see the difference in the punishment handed out. I think its
human nature to seek justice or to seek revenge and its not something so
easy to write off.
Justice is rarely achieved through any kind of system. This drunk driver
really should have the book thrown at him. This is his Second DUI offence.
Obviously containment and a large fine were not enough to deter this young
man from offending again. Also this guys first plea was going to be of
innocent...He claimed that he was not to fault for the accident. The
attorney general thought it would be better to get him on something rather
than nothing at all so that's how the plea bargain got thrown out on the
table.
This guy between now and the 19th can still enter a plea of innocent but I
doubt it, the plea deal is too good.
I'll come to terms with the fact that the justice I feel should be served
won't be. I understand life is unfair and full of disappointment. I also
know that harboring anger and resentment towards this guy doesn't do
anything for me or Matthew. I don't want to remember him and instantly feel
anger for the guy who took his life.
Drunk Driving is also one of those offenses that is easily gotten around.
Yes you knowingly got into a vehicle too impaired to operate it, you broke
countless traffic laws and then wrecked and killed someone. But how
responsible for the other persons death are you? Its not like you
pre-meditated it and you didn't mean for it to happen. Regardless you were
doing something you shouldn't have been doing and should suffer the
consequences of those actions. Its really not a hard concept just too many
other factors involved.
Unfortunately its the way of things. Someone tomorrow could go before a
judge with the exact same crime scenario and walk out with a completely
different sentence. I've sat in a court room before and have seen a drug
dealer get more time than a man who raped a 10 year old girl. Its sad to
see stuff like that. It is what it is. ____________________
My Life is like a porno-Without the sex-Just the weird music
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Sardonic-Pain
Fanatic Posts: 248 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/12/2007 at 09:51 AM |
Weds. Morning we had court.
I can't believe that they actually gave this guy a restricted drivers
licence ____________________
My Life is like a porno-Without the sex-Just the weird music
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littlegothgirlthatcould
Member  Posts: 100 Registered: 13/2/2007 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/2/2008 at 12:44 PM |
Yeah. court does suck.
My judge gave me 18 months of probation for drinking.
I KNOW i am underage, but still.
thats a LOT ____________________
[[Ive learned too many things to let life pass me by now. Ive grown up and
learned my lessons, this is the beginning of the future]]
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