Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 11/12/2004 at 07:12 PM |
Starlight: I was also making a blanket statement about the cloaca issue in
order to dispel further confusion. A cloaca is a simpler structure than a
separate and discrete waste removal/reproductive system, and can therefore
be described as more "primitive" if you look at it merely chronologically.
I wanted to step away from the idea of "forward" and "backward" because too
many people lose themselves in the implied value judgement of the terms.
As for humans with cloacae, this is not atavistic or recessive, nor is it
even a true cloaca; it is a birth defect. Similar structures arise in
nature all the time entirely independently of one another (the squid's eye
is the classic example) and it is for this reason that organisms can not be
reliably placed into a taxonomy based upon their phenotypes alone. We
humans like to fall back into hierarchical patterns of thinking when we use
shorthand terminology, and this leads us to chase down "straight lines" and
"missing links" that do not, necessarily, exist...
*fingers crossed before I continue...* ____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again." |
|
Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 11/12/2004 at 07:18 PM |
W0rmW00d: Unfortunately, intermediate stages are often more of a problem
than a solution. The bipedalism debate springs to my mind. I forget the
precise numbers here, but the argument runs basically as follows:
Chimpanzee quadrapedalism is something like 40% efficient for travelling
long distances like the African savannahs where bipedalism is thought to
have arisen. Modern human bipedalism is closer to 80% efficient for
covering those same distances. Easy top imagine making the leap, right?
Unfortunately, an intermediate form between the two brings down the
efficiency rating to closer to 16%. Presuming that there is no divine
guiding hand here who has an interest in taking a loss for a long term
investment, there is absolutely no reason the species should have survived
that interim stage. The numbers favour the original quadrapeds, and they
should have out-competed those organisms who were on their way to
bipedalism. The only solution is that there was no interim stage and the
bipeds won out.
Incidentally, your croc scenario illustrates punctuated equilibrium fairly
well. I agree with it.
~M. ____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again." |
|
nostalgiaforinfinity
Occasional Poster Posts: 33 Registered: 5/12/2004 Status: Offline
|
posted on 11/12/2004 at 07:31 PM |
And here i bow out, foot in mouth. Just hope i knew enough to pass my
paleobiology exam. Next time mono I'll ask you for a tutorial
beforehand. Though i think i'll be sticking to the hard stuff from now on.
Biology gets me down. It's just too.... squishy. ____________________
|
|
Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 12/12/2004 at 04:49 AM |
NIF: "And here i bow out, foot in mouth... "
NOT AT ALL! We are discussing theory, nothing more, and neither of us is
expert enough to be conclusive. We are dealing in probabilities (which is
all I ever do). I am not the final authority here, I am only presenting
things as I see them. I made the mistake of saying that "no serious
academic believes that" in response to something... I immediately regretted
having done it, not only because what I was refuting was, in fact,
partially true as I understand it, but for personal reasons as well.
Flash back to a classroom in which I suggested to my archaeology professor
that the Bering Strait hypothesis might not account entirely for the
peopling of the Americas... and that people might have migrated earlier
than is generally accepted and from places like Europe, Africa and
Polynesia. I outlined how this might have been done and the evidence I saw
for the idea. His response was to ridicule me in front of the class and
the entire basis for his ridicule was that "no serious academic believes
that".
Three months later the entirety of what I had suggested was the cover story
for Newsweek magazine. I felt slightly vindicated, but still very angry.
If you have reasons to support your ideas and conclusions, share them. Do
not be bound by dogmatic thinking. If people disagree, consider the
likelihood of the case you are presenting and the reasons you have reached
the conclusions you have... but DO NOT be intimidated simply because
somebody else is perceived as a "higher authority" than yourself.
Goes for everyone.
~M. ____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again." |
|
W0rmW00d
Fanatic Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
|
posted on 12/12/2004 at 08:43 AM |
Mono, with the bipedal quadrupedal argument are gorrillas and such not a
classic example of an intermediate stage? They can perform fully bipedally,
but also travel virtually quardupedally over either short or long distances
(i forget which, it could even be for acceleration or something) can't
they?
I know that this is one specific example rather than a general rule, which
is what is probably needed in the evolutionary argument, but i think it is
relevant.
With regards to the peat bog man: Is three thousand years not a pretty
short time in evolutionary terms? Also, though I am far from beleiving that
humans are the final evolutionary step towards which all change has been
heading forever (that would make each newly born baby the new culmination
of science; something their parents may beleive but not my precise point of
view), is it not possible that with our toolmaking abilities we have
somewhat surpassed the need for drastic evolution? Because we can now
survive virtually any standard climate, situation or whatever, and because
the individual has now been subsumed into the whole (society?) there is no
longer any significantly helpful adaptation. Also, genetic differences are
seen as bad rather than good in humans, we are after all made in God's
image, so a toe less is WRONG goddamnit [sarcasm, in case anyone thought I
had suddenly found religion]. The little toe has been on its way out for a
while I once read (i forget where unfortunately) and our damnable species
has been getting taller and weaker. I feel that this is where human
evolution is headed because of the ease with which we live. We may end up
destroying ourselves, or ending up like HG Wells' martians, just one big
motherloving hand with a brain in it, having surpassed all need for
physical ability.
Just my quite ill-informed opinion. I lost real interest in studying
biology a few years back and all the knowledge that is left is from my four
year past biology lessons and what I have gleaned from general seeing
things. ____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world. |
|
pale-face
Fanatic Posts: 478 Registered: 22/9/2004 Status: Offline
|
posted on 12/12/2004 at 10:10 PM |
Did mono just have an argument. I’m confused about that just happened
there. ____________________ fucking classy. |
|
Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 13/12/2004 at 07:38 AM |
Posting problems again (still)... so I'll have to keep my answers brief and
not let how homocidally pissed off it makes me to retype things three and
four times show through in my responses... ____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again." |
|
Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 13/12/2004 at 07:44 AM |
W0rmW00d: RE: Quadrapedalism:
Great ape locomotion is classified as quadrapedalism (this covers Gorillas,
Chimpanzees, Orangutans and Bonobos) and it is why I specifically called it
"chimpanzee quadrapedalism". If we redefine our terms and say that THAT is
the "intermediate phase" and there is nothing between it and human
bipedalism, we are saying the same thing.
RE: Peat Bogs and the Lonely People Who Inhabit Them: 3,000 years is a drop
in the bucket in geological terms (but, Christ, pick a number and it is a
drop in the bucket in "geological terms"), but it represents 150
generations worth of human development. If gradualism is true, then change
occurs constantly and 150 generations is more than sufficient to produce
macro as well as micro changes. I posit that no such change takes
place.
RE: The Littlest Piggie: I've not heard that the little toe is on the way
out and that it serves a function in balance and walking. Of course, this
is the computer age, so entire limbs may well be on the way out.
~M. ____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again." |
|
Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 13/12/2004 at 07:50 AM |
quote: Did mono just have an
argument. I’m confused about that just happened there.
Pale-face: I'm confused about your statement; there are a number of ways to
read it. If you are asking if I was being combative, then the answer is
"no". If you are sarcastically asking if I presented a connected series of
statements designed to reach a proposition, then the answer is "Go fuck
yourself". If you are asking if there was a problem, then the answer is "I
was afraid that I had given NFI the impression that he wasn't discussing
things well and wanted to let him know that this wasn't the case".
Hope that clears things up!
~M. ____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again." |
|
Sticupus
Fanatic Posts: 254 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 14/12/2004 at 02:02 AM |
"I for one would like to see the male sexual organs looking slightly more
attractive than a 'the last chicken on the shelf'."
"Like male genitalia... I was thinking that they should be more colourful.
And should definately be in a less vulnerable position, maybe with a
retractable shell or something."
First a little background on myself. I'm a gay male. I am the authroity on
cock, and to let you know, self-loathing gets you nowhere.
I have a pretty penis as well. No old meat look about it. Maybe that is due
to the fact that I am not circumcised. This gives me advantages that you
claim mother nature has short changed you.
To begin, I have color. My glans is lavender when flacid, and the inside of
my prepuce is pink. My meatus can become a deep red when erect and my glans
changes color depending on my arousal. It can be a light purple turning to
a deep red purple*. That's just obvious color, I have several different
subtle shifts in skin tone throughout where it developed in the womb,
creating my remus.
And the prepuce IS a retractable shell that protects the head. It protects
the real sensitive and vulnerable part of male genitalia. It shouldn't be
exposed to light, dry air, and the awful scratchy fabric inside of your
BVDs.
Also mother nature gave you a pretty nicely shaped head. Appreciate it.
If left alone, the penis is an amazing organ that does it task quite well.
Keep in mind, while we don't have flashy blue scrotums like mandrils, the
human penis is actually adapted to feel good, and not as much to look
good... I still love them.
*(by the way there is no study on the erotic value in glans color change
during foreplay. maybe because this color change is lost due to
circumcision, thus lack of interest or awareness that this color shift
happens as a normal part of a male's arousal) ____________________ The OBOLISK is Divine. |
|