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Author: Subject: Evolution-try again

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Posts: 33
Registered: 5/12/2004
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  posted on 8/12/2004 at 10:31 AM
There was a section in one of my paleobiology lectures called 'historical contingency' and it basically asks the question, 'if evolution could be rewound and started again would animals turn out the same?' So i was sondering what evolutionary differences people would like to see in animals? I for one would like to see the male sexual organs looking slightly more attractive than a 'the last chicken on the shelf'. What d'you think?

 

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Posts: 254
Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 14/12/2004 at 02:02 AM
"I for one would like to see the male sexual organs looking slightly more attractive than a 'the last chicken on the shelf'."

"Like male genitalia... I was thinking that they should be more colourful. And should definately be in a less vulnerable position, maybe with a retractable shell or something."

First a little background on myself. I'm a gay male. I am the authroity on cock, and to let you know, self-loathing gets you nowhere.

I have a pretty penis as well. No old meat look about it. Maybe that is due to the fact that I am not circumcised. This gives me advantages that you claim mother nature has short changed you.
To begin, I have color. My glans is lavender when flacid, and the inside of my prepuce is pink. My meatus can become a deep red when erect and my glans changes color depending on my arousal. It can be a light purple turning to a deep red purple*. That's just obvious color, I have several different subtle shifts in skin tone throughout where it developed in the womb, creating my remus.
And the prepuce IS a retractable shell that protects the head. It protects the real sensitive and vulnerable part of male genitalia. It shouldn't be exposed to light, dry air, and the awful scratchy fabric inside of your BVDs.
Also mother nature gave you a pretty nicely shaped head. Appreciate it.
If left alone, the penis is an amazing organ that does it task quite well. Keep in mind, while we don't have flashy blue scrotums like mandrils, the human penis is actually adapted to feel good, and not as much to look good... I still love them.

*(by the way there is no study on the erotic value in glans color change during foreplay. maybe because this color change is lost due to circumcision, thus lack of interest or awareness that this color shift happens as a normal part of a male's arousal)

 

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The OBOLISK is Divine.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 13/12/2004 at 07:50 AM
quote:
Did mono just have an argument. I&#8217;m confused about that just happened there.


Pale-face: I'm confused about your statement; there are a number of ways to read it. If you are asking if I was being combative, then the answer is "no". If you are sarcastically asking if I presented a connected series of statements designed to reach a proposition, then the answer is "Go fuck yourself". If you are asking if there was a problem, then the answer is "I was afraid that I had given NFI the impression that he wasn't discussing things well and wanted to let him know that this wasn't the case".

Hope that clears things up!

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

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Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 13/12/2004 at 07:44 AM
W0rmW00d: RE: Quadrapedalism:

Great ape locomotion is classified as quadrapedalism (this covers Gorillas, Chimpanzees, Orangutans and Bonobos) and it is why I specifically called it "chimpanzee quadrapedalism". If we redefine our terms and say that THAT is the "intermediate phase" and there is nothing between it and human bipedalism, we are saying the same thing.

RE: Peat Bogs and the Lonely People Who Inhabit Them: 3,000 years is a drop in the bucket in geological terms (but, Christ, pick a number and it is a drop in the bucket in "geological terms"), but it represents 150 generations worth of human development. If gradualism is true, then change occurs constantly and 150 generations is more than sufficient to produce macro as well as micro changes. I posit that no such change takes place.

RE: The Littlest Piggie: I've not heard that the little toe is on the way out and that it serves a function in balance and walking. Of course, this is the computer age, so entire limbs may well be on the way out.

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

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Posts: 580
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  posted on 13/12/2004 at 07:38 AM
Posting problems again (still)... so I'll have to keep my answers brief and not let how homocidally pissed off it makes me to retype things three and four times show through in my responses...

 

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"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

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Posts: 478
Registered: 22/9/2004
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  posted on 12/12/2004 at 10:10 PM
Did mono just have an argument. I’m confused about that just happened there.

 

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fucking classy.

 

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Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
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  posted on 12/12/2004 at 08:43 AM
Mono, with the bipedal quadrupedal argument are gorrillas and such not a classic example of an intermediate stage? They can perform fully bipedally, but also travel virtually quardupedally over either short or long distances (i forget which, it could even be for acceleration or something) can't they?
I know that this is one specific example rather than a general rule, which is what is probably needed in the evolutionary argument, but i think it is relevant.

With regards to the peat bog man: Is three thousand years not a pretty short time in evolutionary terms? Also, though I am far from beleiving that humans are the final evolutionary step towards which all change has been heading forever (that would make each newly born baby the new culmination of science; something their parents may beleive but not my precise point of view), is it not possible that with our toolmaking abilities we have somewhat surpassed the need for drastic evolution? Because we can now survive virtually any standard climate, situation or whatever, and because the individual has now been subsumed into the whole (society?) there is no longer any significantly helpful adaptation. Also, genetic differences are seen as bad rather than good in humans, we are after all made in God's image, so a toe less is WRONG goddamnit [sarcasm, in case anyone thought I had suddenly found religion]. The little toe has been on its way out for a while I once read (i forget where unfortunately) and our damnable species has been getting taller and weaker. I feel that this is where human evolution is headed because of the ease with which we live. We may end up destroying ourselves, or ending up like HG Wells' martians, just one big motherloving hand with a brain in it, having surpassed all need for physical ability.

Just my quite ill-informed opinion. I lost real interest in studying biology a few years back and all the knowledge that is left is from my four year past biology lessons and what I have gleaned from general seeing things.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.

And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 12/12/2004 at 04:49 AM
NIF: "And here i bow out, foot in mouth... "

NOT AT ALL! We are discussing theory, nothing more, and neither of us is expert enough to be conclusive. We are dealing in probabilities (which is all I ever do). I am not the final authority here, I am only presenting things as I see them. I made the mistake of saying that "no serious academic believes that" in response to something... I immediately regretted having done it, not only because what I was refuting was, in fact, partially true as I understand it, but for personal reasons as well.

Flash back to a classroom in which I suggested to my archaeology professor that the Bering Strait hypothesis might not account entirely for the peopling of the Americas... and that people might have migrated earlier than is generally accepted and from places like Europe, Africa and Polynesia. I outlined how this might have been done and the evidence I saw for the idea. His response was to ridicule me in front of the class and the entire basis for his ridicule was that "no serious academic believes that".

Three months later the entirety of what I had suggested was the cover story for Newsweek magazine. I felt slightly vindicated, but still very angry. If you have reasons to support your ideas and conclusions, share them. Do not be bound by dogmatic thinking. If people disagree, consider the likelihood of the case you are presenting and the reasons you have reached the conclusions you have... but DO NOT be intimidated simply because somebody else is perceived as a "higher authority" than yourself.

Goes for everyone.

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Occasional Poster




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Registered: 5/12/2004
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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 07:31 PM
And here i bow out, foot in mouth. Just hope i knew enough to pass my paleobiology exam. Next time mono I'll ask you for a tutorial beforehand. Though i think i'll be sticking to the hard stuff from now on. Biology gets me down. It's just too.... squishy.

 

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Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 07:18 PM
W0rmW00d: Unfortunately, intermediate stages are often more of a problem than a solution. The bipedalism debate springs to my mind. I forget the precise numbers here, but the argument runs basically as follows: Chimpanzee quadrapedalism is something like 40% efficient for travelling long distances like the African savannahs where bipedalism is thought to have arisen. Modern human bipedalism is closer to 80% efficient for covering those same distances. Easy top imagine making the leap, right? Unfortunately, an intermediate form between the two brings down the efficiency rating to closer to 16%. Presuming that there is no divine guiding hand here who has an interest in taking a loss for a long term investment, there is absolutely no reason the species should have survived that interim stage. The numbers favour the original quadrapeds, and they should have out-competed those organisms who were on their way to bipedalism. The only solution is that there was no interim stage and the bipeds won out.

Incidentally, your croc scenario illustrates punctuated equilibrium fairly well. I agree with it.

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 07:12 PM
Starlight: I was also making a blanket statement about the cloaca issue in order to dispel further confusion. A cloaca is a simpler structure than a separate and discrete waste removal/reproductive system, and can therefore be described as more "primitive" if you look at it merely chronologically. I wanted to step away from the idea of "forward" and "backward" because too many people lose themselves in the implied value judgement of the terms.

As for humans with cloacae, this is not atavistic or recessive, nor is it even a true cloaca; it is a birth defect. Similar structures arise in nature all the time entirely independently of one another (the squid's eye is the classic example) and it is for this reason that organisms can not be reliably placed into a taxonomy based upon their phenotypes alone. We humans like to fall back into hierarchical patterns of thinking when we use shorthand terminology, and this leads us to chase down "straight lines" and "missing links" that do not, necessarily, exist...

*fingers crossed before I continue...*

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 07:06 PM
I should also add (as I did three fucking times earlier) that while I acknowledge that phyletic gradualism does and must occur, I must mainatain that the net effect of micro changes upon a population over time is nil as long as environmental factors remain stable. All other things being equal, a representative of Homo sapiens sapiens who lay in a peat bog for three thousand years is genetically identical to the guy standing next to you waiting for the bus to arrive.

*submitting again before moving on to the next part...*

 

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"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 07:02 PM
NFI: " Isn't it more likely that evolution is explained by the cohesion of both models? "

Actually, it is not only more likely, it is necessary for that to be the case. I very harshly (and unfairly) downplayed the rôle of phyletic gradualism because it leads to more misunderstandings about evolution than it clears up, even though it is a chief mechanism of it. We could devote more memory than this site has to offer dispelling myths and misunderstandings regarding evolution, even though it is really not a particularly difficult concept. While most people grasp the most basic of the basics, they miss the larger picture so badly that "evolution" as it is understood by the Great Unwashed is no more a product of scientific thought than creationsism. The theory of evolution is one of the best case studies for a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

Now... I'll submit this part before retyping the whole thing in one sitting. *fingers crossed... you fucking bastard of a site*

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 06:57 PM
Wolf's Note: Writing this for the third fucking time. I am getting damned sick of writing and writing and then losing everything because the fucking site decides I am no longer logged in...

 

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"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 11:53 AM
With regards to the intermediate stages problem, could it not be that a dominant strain mutation such as, for example vestigial fleshy flaps between arms and body became gradually more prolific but had, at the time, no significant advantages or disadvantages until some strains of the mutation allowed ruidmentary gliding which could be an advantage and it developed from there?
With regards to crocs, change seems to be unneccesary in this case. The only ever significant threat to them has been mankind and we have unfortunately happened far too fast for an evolutionary step to become useful in many cases. They have had no real natural predators for millennia and while others around them may have needed to change there has never been a change significantly advantageous enough to create a distinct new genus.

 

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Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.



And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2004 at 07:19 PM
quote:

Your question is still linear and deterministic. Nothing in nature is "forward" or "backward"... it just is

quote:
Punctuated equilibrium, on the other hand, explains why the crocodile hasn't evolved a second in the past ten million years while organisms around it have changed drastically or disappeared altogether. It is because evolution happens fairly quickly when it happens at all.

quote:
Nature does not produce neat and tidy lines for the benefit of paleontologists; Nature produces shapr and rapid changes for the benefit of the organisms under her auspices.



I, for the most part, subscribe to the same theory. What I was trying to point out with the cloaca situation is that at some point some person (or group of people) might have needed a cloaca for a certain type of living condition. So when it was no longer needed, did it then turn into a recessive gene that could pop out at a later time or was it simply a defective/mutated gene that caused a freak occurance for no reason. I realize I used the term step rather than implying a leap or quick occurance, but that is actually what I was getting at. I don't subscribe the the "in between" type steps of evolution. They are unnecessary and don't serve any real purpose in my opinion. I do think some changes are less openly obvious than others, but nonetheless they are a leap rather than an in between stage of any sort.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2004 at 07:14 PM
quote:
any decent knock could cause fatal internal hemorrhaging.



good call mono. i didnt really think if that.

 

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fucking classy.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2004 at 03:02 PM
P.s Geologists, by their very nature, are not 'real academics'. We just enjoy runting about the countryside hammering at the odd rock, so you'll have to excuse my poor debating skills. Also i loathed palaeobiology, so I don't know why I'm bothering with this at all. Interesting though...

 

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  posted on 10/12/2004 at 02:52 PM
Isn't it more likely that evolution is explained by the cohesion of both models? it iis naive to believe that intermediate stages of morphology have never existed. Obviously the changes would have to be very rapid, in the geological blink of an eye, to avoid dead ending, but it is hard to believe that a terrestrial dinosaur lay an egg which then hatched into a fully fledged, feathered aerial dinosaur. Sparsity in the fossil record of intermediate forms could easily be explained by relatively rapid evolution if it needs explanation at all. The FR currently consists of 250,00 species. There are around 2 million known species in the world today (although a lot of these are insects and we dont like insects) so really the FR is more gap than record and such intermediate forms would be easily lost. Of course such rapid changes would appear as stepwise functions and so punctuated equilibrium can provide a useful model for macro evolution, changes in body plan etc but should not be regarded as 'complete'. On the other hand micro evolution is very obviously an example of phyletuc gradualism, there are plenty of examples of this, hominid evolution would probably be cited as the most obvious but the list iis endless (very long anyway).

 

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  posted on 10/12/2004 at 02:10 PM
Darwin himself was the first to use "gaps in the fossil record" to apologetically explain the absence of intermediate forms, but it is far more likely that they simply never existed in the first place. A determinsit needs intermediate forms because they view evolution as a continual and gradual process towards a divinely inspired goal, but this turns evolution into nothing more than very patient creationism. Punctuated equilibrium, on the other hand, explains why the crocodile hasn't evolved a second in the past ten million years while organisms around it have changed drastically or disappeared altogether. It is because evolution happens fairly quickly when it happens at all.

Very simply, intermediate forms don't make any sense and I don't know of any real academics who still believe in them. As NFI already illustrated, an intermediate form between a flightless organism and a flying bird would place that organism into a selective disadvantage until "birdhood" was achieved. If selective environmental pressures guide evolution, then no evolution would be possible at all under these circumstances. How advantageous is it to be half an angler fish or to almost, but not quite, have a prehensile tail? These forms would go extinct under the tenets of phyletic gradualism before they were "finished". Nature does not produce neat and tidy lines for the benefit of paleontologists; Nature produces shapr and rapid changes for the benefit of the organisms under her auspices.

~M

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 
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