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Author: Subject: Sex workers, prostitution, and the other little things in the same boat.

Extreme Fanatic





Posts: 656
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 18/4/2004 at 04:23 PM
The article that Shade linked in the notes brought up an interesting topic to discuss in the political world. I really want to get as many views as I can concerning prostitution and sex workers. How do you feel when you hear the word 'prostitute'? Do you think that it would be okay to legalise prostitution, assuming that health regulations were enforced? If this was to happen, would you be taking advantage of the new system? Why or why not? There's likely other questions I have left out, but you are all intelligent people so I will leave the extra information up to you.



[Edited on 4/18/2004 by Anya]

 
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Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 1/12/2004 at 02:58 AM
I don't hunt my food, i buy it. i don't find my excitement, I buy it. I don't acheive enlightenment, I buy it. I don't mak entertainment, I buy it. I don't experience to create my knowledge, I buy it. I don't create my warmth, I buy it. I don't find peace of mind, I buy it.
OH MY GOD, YOU WANT TO BUY SEX?

Everything I can think of that a human could ever want and more is bought and sold legally. Grocers, theme parks, spiritual texts, electronics shops schools, central heating company, off licences to respectively name where one aquires each of these things for money. Why not sex? If I wanted sex enough and did not want to go through all that would be necessary to get it then I imagine I would, just like I don't always bother to fashion a spear run around a forest and try to find a deer for dinner. Just that I don't suppose that I would feel the desperation for sex so often as I do for food.
We have food regulations but you can still buy out of date meat, the safest rollercoaster in the world can break down, there isn't any regulation on how people brainwash you.
No, legalisation would not solve all the problems with prostitution just as nothing can ever solve all the problems with anything. There would be cheap shags and expensive lovemaking, ripoff mercheants and good traders, chains and indies. It would, in short, become a legal business. Just like every other human want or need. The difference is that in this case there is direct contact between the buyer and the 'manufacturer' as it were. I wonder if that may not be a good thing. Maybe other industries could learn something? No, I guess not. I forgot. Sex is illegal and immoral. And if its not then it should be.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.

And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/5/2004 at 06:01 PM
I found your last comment, Shade, to be very interesting.

To most people, vanilla is the comfort zone and anything else is dangerous and scary. This is a website where a multitude of sexual flavors are represented comfortably, if not encouraged. As a person with an extremely vanilla relationship (I am marrying the only person I've ever had sex with, not to mention the only one I've ever voluntarily kissed), it makes me feel a little unadventurous at times.

But the thing is, what is safe and established to most (i.e. vanilla) is actually dangerous and scary to me. I was not ever exposed to any relationship options except for virgin marriage to someone who my parents first approved, and with whom I had undergone the necessary courtship rituals prescribed by the church. For me to venture out into the world of sex before marriage, let alone marriage to anyone who did not grow up the way I did, was very frightening and difficult, and something I had to figure out from scratch. What everyone else took for granted, I had to find out the hard way.

So to you, my relationship may be vanilla, but to me, it is adventure incarnate.

As the Queen of Trash sings in "Elmo in Grouchland", "it's all about your point of view!"

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Fanatic




Posts: 459
Registered: 15/2/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/5/2004 at 12:16 PM
hmm..... you do have a point...in many "vanilla" relationships the negotiation process is on default....leaving the two thinking that what they want, sexually or otherwise, is already out of the question....although i don't doubt that there are some exceptions...in both kinds of relationships.

 

____________________
"It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak." ~ The Sandman, Dream Country

 

Fanatic




Posts: 289
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/5/2004 at 10:42 AM
Most interpersonal relationships are highly complex, it's just that in the case of vanilla relationships; people are raised with the coping mechanisms and skills built in. When you step out of what a lot of scared people consider 'normal' you get into unexplored territory. The negotiation in most vanilla relationships is assumed which is why so many relationships go so wrong, outside of the vanilla world more people know that communication is more important than anything else and are more likely to stay together because they want to rather than splitting up or staying together for crappy reasons.

 

____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me

 

Fanatic




Posts: 459
Registered: 15/2/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/5/2004 at 10:04 AM
of course people will end up loving more than one person in life...it's kind of the reason why they say "First loves always end"...badly...there's a reason why there's always a second and third etc.

I was just wondering around the net (i pulled a google) is all trying to understand the terms, open marrage, poly, polyamery and all that. it just seemed very interesting and many of those relationships do seem complicated. (complexity is the "spice" of life, right?)

 

____________________
"It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak." ~
The Sandman, Dream Country

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 656
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/5/2004 at 09:51 AM
Shade: Interesting, I always thought virgin porn being pictures of "innocent and nubile" men and women posing nude in front of the camera. If no one gets a clue of the person's suppose state, the bottom of the screen would have "Wanna suck on this virgin?" or something like that. I learn something new everyday, eh? No sarcasm intended...dead serious on what I thought it was.

Meranda: Loving more than one actually makes sense to me. Even if the person ends up in a monogamous relationship, I personally think that there will be more than one person that people will end up loving in life; sometimes the love disappears, sometimes it just stays. Polyamory, to me, is just another step of those feelings for other people. I really do not think there's many people who strictly loves just "one"...even among monogamous people.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 289
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/5/2004 at 09:28 AM
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=CEZMCWN UQFSG0CRBAEKSFFA?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=5009020&pageNumber=1

Here's a group of activists working to address a lot of the issues we have discussed. It's kind of neat to see.


Zero: Sex (as in "to have sex") is the act of hitting certain psychological or physical 'buttons' in order to provide pleasure to self or others. Generally, masturbation is considered a form of sexuallity, but actually having sex involves two or more participants.

The reason Idescribed virgin porn as being by people "trying to sound like they know what sex is" should be pretty obvious, but it probably needs a clearer definition as (assuming the rest of the crew agrees with my definition of sex) once someone reads the proceeding paragraph they could logically claim to know "what sex is". So virgin porn should be defined as porn written by people who have never had sex, or are still to new to the act to be able to describe it. Basically "porn" (and I use the term generously) written by virgins or people who are still so close to their virginity that a relapse is possible.

 

____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion. />
-Me

 

Fanatic




Posts: 511
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/4/2004 at 09:12 PM
Poly doesn't mean necessarily multiple partners. If you want multiple partners, go be a swinger. Polyamory means "loving more than one" . This can be done with or without sex. It also brings all the baggage that implies. For some reason, people are a lot more likely to get unreasonably jealous if their partner admits being in love with someone besides them than they are if their partner is just having sex with someone else. It's a hard road to travel and not for everyone. It takes a lot of maturity to accept that not only can you be very special to someone, but someone else can be just as special and it doesn't mean that you are less special.

As far s prostitution goes, sure, I'd be all for its legalization. Nobody has the right to tell you you can't sell your own body. It's your body. You can do what you want with it, and if someone is willing to pay for its use, and you're willing to let them, nobody should be able to tell you that you can't. It's that simple, when you really get down to it.

 

____________________

 

Fanatic




Posts: 459
Registered: 15/2/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/4/2004 at 07:16 PM
hhmmm...that doesn't sound too good at all...i wonder if i could get an example from callei...

I know poly means multiple partners it's just i've seen a couple of definitions, from various places on the web that seem to conflict with each other....as a wise woman once told me....i'm hard of thinking....lol...I guess maybe there are different sub catagories of poly or something...looks like i got more research to do.

Shade: so what is sex?...i'd like to hear(read) that explanation...sounds like it would be an eye opener.

(again... all said without sarcasm or malice of any kind)

 

____________________
"It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak."
~

The Sandman, Dream Country

 

Fanatic




Posts: 289
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/4/2004 at 06:28 PM
Virgin Porn is porn written by virgins who are trying to sound like they know what sex is. It usually comes off as a badly written romance novel with too little detail. For more info on Virgin Porn, ask Callei, she has to reject too much of it as it is.

 

____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an />
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness
with

no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of
religion.
/>

-Me

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 893
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 29/4/2004 at 08:48 AM
Vanilla relationships are the opposite of kinky, anything-goes sexual relationships... Nothing too far out of the mainstream.
Poly means multiple partners. For an expert on the subject, summon Devin.

As for virgin porn... I don't know. I suppose its just porn of virgins. Anybody else know?

"Ass Magazine: The Porn of Virgins the World Over"

 

____________________
Piggy's got the Conch!

 

Fanatic




Posts: 459
Registered: 15/2/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 28/4/2004 at 12:12 PM
not to break our discussion but: i had never heard of relationships being described as "vanilla" until i came here....so i guess i have to ask the question: What exactly is a vanilla relationship? (and what is "virgin porn" too?) just some things that were on my mind. come to think of it i had never heard the term "poly" either...would someone like to explain?....(i ask this with enthusiasm...not with sarcasm)

i always thought that in every (good) relationship there were negotiations and compromises always being made...are you saying that this happens more freuquently in certain types of relationships??

(I ask about "poly" because i've being surfing the waves of the internet and i see different meanings of it...they all sound almost the same...but then again many of them have different ideas about the meaning of the term...and how the relationship works.)

(a new descussion??)

on second thought maybe these questions have been asked too many times.....i just have a curious nature.

[Edited on 29/4/2004 by Zero]

 

____________________
"It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will
speak."

~


The Sandman, Dream Country

 

Fanatic




Posts: 289
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 28/4/2004 at 06:07 AM
OK, I've let this one go on a bit too long in waiting to see if anyone was going to find the relevance in the original article. The reason I postedthe link in the first place was in order to illustrate that in what is often considered to be a simple no frills service industry, there is still more negotioation going on than you will find in most vanilla couples. Negotiation is a concept that has been brought up a lot lately on this site and I wanted to show another area of life in which it is not only helpful, but highly necessary for a successful interaction between human beings.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled debate. As you were

 

____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for
an
/>

all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness

with


no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of

religion.

/>


-Me

 

Fanatic




Posts: 289
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 28/4/2004 at 06:03 AM
Actually, most brothels in legalized prostitution areas do have a menu of some sort. I still like Squire's mini quaotable:
"I'd like an order of anal sex please."

"Would you like head with that?"

 

____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for

an

/>


all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness />

with



no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of


religion.


/>



-Me

 

Member




Posts: 119
Registered: 4/4/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 28/4/2004 at 12:59 AM
so what u are saying anonymous is that sex workers would open fast serve restraunts, and have menus...hehehe... i can imagine it now 'ill have a tall blonde with a red head on the side' *sigh* that would be good

 

____________________
I know whats it like to want to die, how it hurts to smile, how you try to fit in but you can't, how you hurt yourself on the outside, to try to kill the pain in the inside.

 





Posts: 116
Registered: 14/4/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/4/2004 at 02:23 PM
the only flaw i can find in that metaphor is using only McDonalds as "fast food". Where i grew up you could get take out sushi, couscous, and HUGE fancy salads all served about as fast as McD's and in many cases faster because the workers were paid more and ate better themselves.
I dont think all prostiution now is Mcd's level, nor is it all 4 Michelin star, and if legalized, i think that would still be true. You could buy very questionable hot dogs at Lucky dog or go to K Paul's or that little place down the street from your house where all your neighbors go. I think the same market conditions that apply now would still apply, and the same buying pressures would be there.

 

Moderator




Posts: 37
Registered: 1/8/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/4/2004 at 01:47 PM
Just going to play devil's advocate here on the subject of protecting people from themselves. The reason we have these laws and lawsuits is not because anyone really cares about anyone else's health and safety (at least not directly). It's all about the money.

For instance, here in Louisiana, they just had a vote to reinstate the motorcycle helmet law. Do we want bikers to wear helmets because we care about them and don't want to see them get hurt? Of course not. We want them to wear helmets because when they don't wear helmets and they have to go to the emergency room (or even worse, become a vegetable on life support), we all pay for it in higher health care costs and insurance premiums.

Same goes for cigarettes. When you get lung cancer, are you going to be paying the hundreds of thousands of dollars it costs to treat you? Unless you are fabulously wealthy, probably not. Your insurance will (or if you're old enough, Medicare/Medicaid). If you don't have insurance, you'll probably have to do with a lower standard of care, but you'll still get emergency room treatment, even if you can't pay for it. And in the end, we all end up paying for your care in higher insurance premiums and higher taxes. With cigarettes, states were losing so much money treating smoking related illnesses, that the states themselves started suing tobacco companies to recoup the losses.

The bottom line is that in a system where a large portion of healthcare is funded publicly, the public has a vested interest in making sure you take care of yourself. It may suck, but the alternative is a system where only the rich get good treatment and the poor have to do with an asprin and a pat on the back.

My two cents on legalizing prostitution:

I think the debate over legalizing prostitution is just another aspect of the increasing gap between sex and intimacy. And what is causing this gap to widen? Three words baby (and possibly my favorite three words in the English language): reliable birth control. Before the advent of reliable birth control, every time you had sex you had to acknowledge that, in all likelihood, you were going to produce a child. Therefore, unless you were an unconscionable asshole, you would, for the most part, only want to have sex with someone who you would want to raise a child with (i.e. someone you could trust and stand to live with for a long time). Now (in spite of what fear mongers will tell you) sex is relatively safe and consequence free as long as the proper precautions are taken. As a result, people are more willing to experiment with sex and have sex with people with whom they wouldn't necessarily want to become intimate.

With the advent of agricultural technology and advanced distribution, food (for much of the world) became more about pleasure and experimentation than survival. Similarly, with the advent of reliable birth control, sex (for much of the world) became more about pleasure and experimentation than procreation.

Is this gap between sex and intimacy a bad thing? I don't think so. Then again, I'm the kind of person who believes all action has meaning only if we decide to give it meaning. Basically, there is nothing inherently meaningful in the physical act of sex, but through sharing it with someone you love, it can become meaningful. To continue the food metaphor, you can go out to an amazing, candlelit dinner with your loved one, and afterwards you can feel so connected to them, like you know them in a way that you never did before. Or, you can grab a quick bite to eat with your friends. The eating isn't what's important, the sharing of the experience and the building of intimacy is what makes it meaningful.

Should we legalize prostitution? Sure, why not. Will men be more likely to visit prostitutes? Yes. Will prostitution become a safer and more respectable profession? Probably. Will the availability of cheap, safe, anonymous sex on demand be good for society? I think so, but really who knows.

Now to take the food metaphor all the way home If prostitution is legalized, it will become to sex what McDonald's is to food. There will always be people who like the convenience and price of McDonald's and don't see the need to bother with anything else. There will always be people who wouldn't be caught dead putting that shit in their bodies and only eat what they cook at home. And there will always be people who prefer to cook at home but when they're starving and late for work, they'll cave in. There will be some people who work at McDonald's for a few years while they're in school to make extra cash. There will be some people who work at McDonald's their entire lives until they lose all hope of something better. And there will be people who will always look down on anyone who has ever worked at a McDonald's.

 

Member




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Status: Offline

  posted on 27/4/2004 at 09:13 AM
Well, I don't think legalising prostitution would really solve the problem. In Spain prostitution is legal, you see (a little known fact, even among Spaniards), and things are not quite better

Just legalising prostitution is not enough. Down here the law recognizes that selling one's own body is a victimless crime, and that victimless crmes are no crimes at all (somebody said this before). Now everything around prostitution, however, is forbidden.

It's quite hard to explain myself and use the proper words (I never dwelled on this kind of vocabulary when I learnt, you know) but I'll try. There is a general crime figure called "Proxenetismo" which inculdes a) Any sort of prostitute-client mediation, including long-term employment of a prostiute to sell or hire to a third party b) Offering the services of a prostitute (other than your own, of course) c) Promoting prostitution in any way d) Giving permanent shelter to prostitutes to fullfill their contracts. And a lot of other things such as selling "protection" and all that.

Prostitutes are allowed as long as they are "liberal professionals". Like lawyers, you know, or doctors. Nothing stands in a prostitute's way to get toi the State and start paying his or her taxes to become a regular, legal worker. Now there are a lot of problems when trying to sue someone because he or she didn't pay you for a sexual service (big long boring theme)

It's not a matter of the law really, I think it's a matter of the mind. Prostitutes have been disregarded in almost every culture as the lowest of the low, by both men and women (I have my theories about why). Now, it's getting to be the time when our societies must confront themselves with prostitution and take a firm and decided attitude about the issue. Is prostitution a bad thing, something that corrupts and degenerates our society, pernicious py its very nature for our societies' moral development? Then it should be erradicated, attacking every partner there. The prostitute, the pimp, the client. I don't really know about American law regarding that (other than American hookers don't want a competition... when you travel to the US you have to declare you're not travelling there to be a prostitute. Odd, why just that profession? A good lobby hookers must have in Washington) but I believe it's something like that: everyone involved is punished.

It doesn't seem to work, does it?

Otherwise we should get rid of our Pauline prejudices against sex (donĄt mix Jesus with this, Jesus got along pretty well with prostitutes) and start considering prostitution just a job as any other.

Or is it?

I don't think prostitution should be regarded as any other profession. A legal prostitution must be regulated considerning that sex is a lot more than opening your legs. For prostitution to be dignified and valid a strong and restrictive legislation would be needed, something like a Prostitute Bar Association. Sex is too important to leave to chance. Sex has to do with extremely sensitive areas of our personality, not every one hires a hooker for a good fuck. Most people need to get over traumas, solitude, desperation... I have a sex worker as.... as a VERY good friend of mine and you'd be amazed at how many people just need to talk, to be listened to. You might insult me but to me, being a sex worker and doing it really well, being able to sell all that sex has to offer is a VERY complex, multi-disciplinar thing that needs a higher education. It's not just doing good blowjobs, it's about having a psychologyist's empathy, a doctor's knowledge of the body (and of some diseases), a poet's tenderness... Definitely not something that you learn by chance

Legal pProstitution? Yeah, but with a Master's degree needed, and a union to avoid intrusions. Ii never liked amateurs...

Arthegarn

PS that was somewhat of a translation another post of mine. For those of you speaking Spanish and willing to follow the topic, here is the link
http://www.darkspain.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2016&highlig ht=prostitucion

 

Member




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Status: Offline

  posted on 24/4/2004 at 01:14 PM
I'm jumping in a little late on this, but for an interesting, sometimes funny, and often nauseating look at the world of illiegal street prostitution check out the Hughes brothers' documentary American Pimp.

It is clear by the end of the film that by comparison women working in the legal brothels have it about a thousand times better than those out on the street.

 

____________________
Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.

 
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