Subject: Sex workers, prostitution, and the other little things in the same boat.
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 18/4/2004 at 04:23 PM
The article that Shade linked in the notes brought up an interesting topic
to discuss in the political world. I really want to get as many views as I
can concerning prostitution and sex workers. How do you feel when you hear
the word 'prostitute'? Do you think that it would be okay to legalise
prostitution, assuming that health regulations were enforced? If this was
to happen, would you be taking advantage of the new system? Why or why
not? There's likely other questions I have left out, but you are all
intelligent people so I will leave the extra information up to you.
[Edited on 4/18/2004 by Anya]
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 1/12/2004 at 02:58 AM
I don't hunt my food, i buy it. i don't find my excitement, I buy it. I
don't acheive enlightenment, I buy it. I don't mak entertainment, I buy it.
I don't experience to create my knowledge, I buy it. I don't create my
warmth, I buy it. I don't find peace of mind, I buy it.
OH MY GOD, YOU WANT TO BUY SEX?
Everything I can think of that a human could ever want and more is bought
and sold legally. Grocers, theme parks, spiritual texts, electronics shops
schools, central heating company, off licences to respectively name where
one aquires each of these things for money. Why not sex? If I wanted sex
enough and did not want to go through all that would be necessary to get it
then I imagine I would, just like I don't always bother to fashion a spear
run around a forest and try to find a deer for dinner. Just that I don't
suppose that I would feel the desperation for sex so often as I do for
food.
We have food regulations but you can still buy out of date meat, the safest
rollercoaster in the world can break down, there isn't any regulation on
how people brainwash you.
No, legalisation would not solve all the problems with prostitution just as
nothing can ever solve all the problems with anything. There would be cheap
shags and expensive lovemaking, ripoff mercheants and good traders, chains
and indies. It would, in short, become a legal business. Just like every
other human want or need. The difference is that in this case there is
direct contact between the buyer and the 'manufacturer' as it were. I
wonder if that may not be a good thing. Maybe other industries could learn
something? No, I guess not. I forgot. Sex is illegal and immoral. And if
its not then it should be.
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
Schizo
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 2/5/2004 at 06:01 PM
I found your last comment, Shade, to be very interesting.
To most people, vanilla is the comfort zone and anything else is dangerous
and scary. This is a website where a multitude of sexual flavors are
represented comfortably, if not encouraged. As a person with an extremely
vanilla relationship (I am marrying the only person I've ever had sex with,
not to mention the only one I've ever voluntarily kissed), it makes me feel
a little unadventurous at times.
But the thing is, what is safe and established to most (i.e. vanilla) is
actually dangerous and scary to me. I was not ever exposed to any
relationship options except for virgin marriage to someone who my parents
first approved, and with whom I had undergone the necessary courtship
rituals prescribed by the church. For me to venture out into the world of
sex before marriage, let alone marriage to anyone who did not grow up the
way I did, was very frightening and difficult, and something I had to
figure out from scratch. What everyone else took for granted, I had to
find out the hard way.
So to you, my relationship may be vanilla, but to me, it is adventure
incarnate.
As the Queen of Trash sings in "Elmo in Grouchland", "it's all about your
point of view!"
____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
Zero
Fanatic
Posts: 459 Registered: 15/2/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 2/5/2004 at 12:16 PM
hmm..... you do have a point...in many "vanilla" relationships the
negotiation process is on default....leaving the two thinking that what
they want, sexually or otherwise, is already out of the
question....although i don't doubt that there are some exceptions...in both
kinds of relationships.
____________________ "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak." ~
The Sandman, Dream Country
Shade
Fanatic
Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 2/5/2004 at 10:42 AM
Most interpersonal relationships are highly complex, it's just that in the
case of vanilla relationships; people are raised with the coping mechanisms
and skills built in. When you step out of what a lot of scared people
consider 'normal' you get into unexplored territory. The negotiation in
most vanilla relationships is assumed which is why so many relationships go
so wrong, outside of the vanilla world more people know that communication
is more important than anything else and are more likely to stay together
because they want to rather than splitting up or staying together for
crappy reasons.
____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me
Zero
Fanatic
Posts: 459 Registered: 15/2/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 2/5/2004 at 10:04 AM
of course people will end up loving more than one person in life...it's
kind of the reason why they say "First loves always end"...badly...there's
a reason why there's always a second and third etc.
I was just wondering around the net (i pulled a google) is all trying to
understand the terms, open marrage, poly, polyamery and all that. it just
seemed very interesting and many of those relationships do seem
complicated. (complexity is the "spice" of life, right?)
____________________ "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak."
~
The Sandman, Dream Country
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 2/5/2004 at 09:51 AM
Shade: Interesting, I always thought virgin porn being pictures of
"innocent and nubile" men and women posing nude in front of the camera. If
no one gets a clue of the person's suppose state, the bottom of the screen
would have "Wanna suck on this virgin?" or something like that. I learn
something new everyday, eh? No sarcasm intended...dead serious on what I
thought it was.
Meranda: Loving more than one actually makes sense to me. Even if the
person ends up in a monogamous relationship, I personally think that there
will be more than one person that people will end up loving in life;
sometimes the love disappears, sometimes it just stays. Polyamory, to me,
is just another step of those feelings for other people. I really do not
think there's many people who strictly loves just "one"...even among
monogamous people.
Here's a group of activists working to address a lot of the issues we have
discussed. It's kind of neat to see.
Zero: Sex (as in "to have sex") is the act of hitting certain psychological
or physical 'buttons' in order to provide pleasure to self or others.
Generally, masturbation is considered a form of sexuallity, but actually
having sex involves two or more participants.
The reason Idescribed virgin porn as being by people "trying to sound like
they know what sex is" should be pretty obvious, but it probably needs a
clearer definition as (assuming the rest of the crew agrees with my
definition of sex) once someone reads the proceeding paragraph they could
logically claim to know "what sex is". So virgin porn should be defined as
porn written by people who have never had sex, or are still to new to the
act to be able to describe it. Basically "porn" (and I use the term
generously) written by virgins or people who are still so close to their
virginity that a relapse is possible.
____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness
with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of
religion.
/>
-Me
Meranda_Jade
Fanatic
Posts: 511 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 30/4/2004 at 09:12 PM
Poly doesn't mean necessarily multiple partners. If you want multiple
partners, go be a swinger. Polyamory means "loving more than one" . This
can be done with or without sex. It also brings all the baggage that
implies. For some reason, people are a lot more likely to get unreasonably
jealous if their partner admits being in love with someone besides them
than they are if their partner is just having sex with someone else. It's a
hard road to travel and not for everyone. It takes a lot of maturity to
accept that not only can you be very special to someone, but someone else
can be just as special and it doesn't mean that you are less special.
As far s prostitution goes, sure, I'd be all for its legalization. Nobody
has the right to tell you you can't sell your own body. It's your body. You
can do what you want with it, and if someone is willing to pay for its use,
and you're willing to let them, nobody should be able to tell you that you
can't. It's that simple, when you really get down to it.
____________________
Zero
Fanatic
Posts: 459 Registered: 15/2/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 30/4/2004 at 07:16 PM
hhmmm...that doesn't sound too good at all...i wonder if i could get an
example from callei...
I know poly means multiple partners it's just i've seen a couple of
definitions, from various places on the web that seem to conflict with each
other....as a wise woman once told me....i'm hard of thinking....lol...I
guess maybe there are different sub catagories of poly or something...looks
like i got more research to do.
Shade: so what is sex?...i'd like to hear(read) that explanation...sounds
like it would be an eye opener.
(again... all said without sarcasm or malice of any kind)
____________________ "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will
speak."
~
The Sandman, Dream Country
Shade
Fanatic
Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 30/4/2004 at 06:28 PM
Virgin Porn is porn written by virgins who are trying to sound like they
know what sex is. It usually comes off as a badly written romance novel
with too little detail. For more info on Virgin Porn, ask Callei, she has
to reject too much of it as it is.
____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for
an
/>
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness
with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of
religion.
/>
-Me
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 29/4/2004 at 08:48 AM
Vanilla relationships are the opposite of kinky, anything-goes sexual
relationships... Nothing too far out of the mainstream.
Poly means multiple partners. For an expert on the subject, summon Devin.
As for virgin porn... I don't know. I suppose its just porn of virgins.
Anybody else know?
"Ass Magazine: The Porn of Virgins the World Over"
____________________ Piggy's got the Conch!
Zero
Fanatic
Posts: 459 Registered: 15/2/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 28/4/2004 at 12:12 PM
not to break our discussion but: i had never heard of relationships being
described as "vanilla" until i came here....so i guess i have to ask the
question: What exactly is a vanilla relationship? (and what is "virgin
porn" too?) just some things that were on my mind. come to think of it i
had never heard the term "poly" either...would someone like to
explain?....(i ask this with enthusiasm...not with sarcasm)
i always thought that in every (good) relationship there were negotiations
and compromises always being made...are you saying that this happens more
freuquently in certain types of relationships??
(I ask about "poly" because i've being surfing the waves of the internet
and i see different meanings of it...they all sound almost the same...but
then again many of them have different ideas about the meaning of the
term...and how the relationship works.)
(a new descussion??)
on second thought maybe these questions have been asked too many
times.....i just have a curious nature.
[Edited on 29/4/2004 by Zero]
____________________ "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will
speak."
~
The Sandman, Dream Country
Shade
Fanatic
Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 28/4/2004 at 06:07 AM
OK, I've let this one go on a bit too long in waiting to see if anyone was
going to find the relevance in the original article. The reason I postedthe
link in the first place was in order to illustrate that in what is often
considered to be a simple no frills service industry, there is still more
negotioation going on than you will find in most vanilla couples.
Negotiation is a concept that has been brought up a lot lately on this site
and I wanted to show another area of life in which it is not only helpful,
but highly necessary for a successful interaction between human beings.
OK, back to your regularly scheduled debate. As you were
____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for
an
/>
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness
with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of
religion.
/>
-Me
Shade
Fanatic
Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 28/4/2004 at 06:03 AM
Actually, most brothels in legalized prostitution areas do have a menu of
some sort. I still like Squire's mini quaotable:
"I'd like an order of anal sex please."
"Would you like head with that?"
____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for
an
/>
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness
/>
with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of
religion.
/>
-Me
angel_of_death
Member
Posts: 119 Registered: 4/4/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 28/4/2004 at 12:59 AM
so what u are saying anonymous is that sex workers would open fast serve
restraunts, and have menus...hehehe... i can imagine it now 'ill have a
tall blonde with a red head on the side' *sigh* that would be good
____________________ I know whats it like to want to die, how it hurts to smile, how you try to
fit in but you can't, how you hurt yourself on the outside, to try to kill
the pain in the inside.
Anonymous
Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 27/4/2004 at 02:23 PM
the only flaw i can find in that metaphor is using only McDonalds as "fast
food". Where i grew up you could get take out sushi, couscous, and HUGE
fancy salads all served about as fast as McD's and in many cases faster
because the workers were paid more and ate better themselves.
I dont think all prostiution now is Mcd's level, nor is it all 4 Michelin
star, and if legalized, i think that would still be true. You could buy
very questionable hot dogs at Lucky dog or go to K Paul's or that little
place down the street from your house where all your neighbors go. I think
the same market conditions that apply now would still apply, and the same
buying pressures would be there.
Britva
Moderator
Posts: 37 Registered: 1/8/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 27/4/2004 at 01:47 PM
Just going to play devil's advocate here on the subject of protecting
people from themselves. The reason we have these laws and lawsuits is not
because anyone really cares about anyone else's health and safety (at least
not directly). It's all about the money.
For instance, here in Louisiana, they just had a vote to reinstate the
motorcycle helmet law. Do we want bikers to wear helmets because we care
about them and don't want to see them get hurt? Of course not. We want them
to wear helmets because when they don't wear helmets and they have to go to
the emergency room (or even worse, become a vegetable on life support), we
all pay for it in higher health care costs and insurance premiums.
Same goes for cigarettes. When you get lung cancer, are you going to be
paying the hundreds of thousands of dollars it costs to treat you? Unless
you are fabulously wealthy, probably not. Your insurance will (or if you're
old enough, Medicare/Medicaid). If you don't have insurance, you'll
probably have to do with a lower standard of care, but you'll still get
emergency room treatment, even if you can't pay for it. And in the end, we
all end up paying for your care in higher insurance premiums and higher
taxes. With cigarettes, states were losing so much money treating smoking
related illnesses, that the states themselves started suing tobacco
companies to recoup the losses.
The bottom line is that in a system where a large portion of healthcare is
funded publicly, the public has a vested interest in making sure you take
care of yourself. It may suck, but the alternative is a system where only
the rich get good treatment and the poor have to do with an asprin and a
pat on the back.
My two cents on legalizing prostitution:
I think the debate over legalizing prostitution is just another aspect of
the increasing gap between sex and intimacy. And what is causing this gap
to widen? Three words baby (and possibly my favorite three words in the
English language): reliable birth control. Before the advent of reliable
birth control, every time you had sex you had to acknowledge that, in all
likelihood, you were going to produce a child. Therefore, unless you were
an unconscionable asshole, you would, for the most part, only want to have
sex with someone who you would want to raise a child with (i.e. someone you
could trust and stand to live with for a long time). Now (in spite of what
fear mongers will tell you) sex is relatively safe and consequence free as
long as the proper precautions are taken. As a result, people are more
willing to experiment with sex and have sex with people with whom they
wouldn't necessarily want to become intimate.
With the advent of agricultural technology and advanced distribution, food
(for much of the world) became more about pleasure and experimentation than
survival. Similarly, with the advent of reliable birth control, sex (for
much of the world) became more about pleasure and experimentation than
procreation.
Is this gap between sex and intimacy a bad thing? I don't think so. Then
again, I'm the kind of person who believes all action has meaning only if
we decide to give it meaning. Basically, there is nothing inherently
meaningful in the physical act of sex, but through sharing it with someone
you love, it can become meaningful. To continue the food metaphor, you can
go out to an amazing, candlelit dinner with your loved one, and afterwards
you can feel so connected to them, like you know them in a way that you
never did before. Or, you can grab a quick bite to eat with your friends.
The eating isn't what's important, the sharing of the experience and the
building of intimacy is what makes it meaningful.
Should we legalize prostitution? Sure, why not. Will men be more likely to
visit prostitutes? Yes. Will prostitution become a safer and more
respectable profession? Probably. Will the availability of cheap, safe,
anonymous sex on demand be good for society? I think so, but really who
knows.
Now to take the food metaphor all the way home If prostitution is
legalized, it will become to sex what McDonald's is to food. There will
always be people who like the convenience and price of McDonald's and don't
see the need to bother with anything else. There will always be people who
wouldn't be caught dead putting that shit in their bodies and only eat what
they cook at home. And there will always be people who prefer to cook at
home but when they're starving and late for work, they'll cave in. There
will be some people who work at McDonald's for a few years while they're in
school to make extra cash. There will be some people who work at McDonald's
their entire lives until they lose all hope of something better. And there
will be people who will always look down on anyone who has ever worked at a
McDonald's.
Arthegarn
Member
Posts: 79 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 27/4/2004 at 09:13 AM
Well, I don't think legalising prostitution would really solve the problem.
In Spain prostitution is legal, you see (a little known fact, even among
Spaniards), and things are not quite better
Just legalising prostitution is not enough. Down here the law recognizes
that selling one's own body is a victimless crime, and that victimless
crmes are no crimes at all (somebody said this before). Now everything
around prostitution, however, is forbidden.
It's quite hard to explain myself and use the proper words (I never dwelled
on this kind of vocabulary when I learnt, you know) but I'll try. There is
a general crime figure called "Proxenetismo" which inculdes a) Any sort of
prostitute-client mediation, including long-term employment of a prostiute
to sell or hire to a third party b) Offering the services of a prostitute
(other than your own, of course) c) Promoting prostitution in any way d)
Giving permanent shelter to prostitutes to fullfill their contracts. And a
lot of other things such as selling "protection" and all that.
Prostitutes are allowed as long as they are "liberal professionals". Like
lawyers, you know, or doctors. Nothing stands in a prostitute's way to get
toi the State and start paying his or her taxes to become a regular, legal
worker. Now there are a lot of problems when trying to sue someone because
he or she didn't pay you for a sexual service (big long boring theme)
It's not a matter of the law really, I think it's a matter of the mind.
Prostitutes have been disregarded in almost every culture as the lowest of
the low, by both men and women (I have my theories about why). Now, it's
getting to be the time when our societies must confront themselves with
prostitution and take a firm and decided attitude about the issue. Is
prostitution a bad thing, something that corrupts and degenerates our
society, pernicious py its very nature for our societies' moral
development? Then it should be erradicated, attacking every partner there.
The prostitute, the pimp, the client. I don't really know about American
law regarding that (other than American hookers don't want a competition...
when you travel to the US you have to declare you're not travelling there
to be a prostitute. Odd, why just that profession? A good lobby hookers
must have in Washington) but I believe it's something like that: everyone
involved is punished.
It doesn't seem to work, does it?
Otherwise we should get rid of our Pauline prejudices against sex (donĄt
mix Jesus with this, Jesus got along pretty well with prostitutes) and
start considering prostitution just a job as any other.
Or is it?
I don't think prostitution should be regarded as any other profession. A
legal prostitution must be regulated considerning that sex is a lot more
than opening your legs. For prostitution to be dignified and valid a strong
and restrictive legislation would be needed, something like a Prostitute
Bar Association. Sex is too important to leave to chance. Sex has to do
with extremely sensitive areas of our personality, not every one hires a
hooker for a good fuck. Most people need to get over traumas, solitude,
desperation... I have a sex worker as.... as a VERY good friend of mine and
you'd be amazed at how many people just need to talk, to be listened to.
You might insult me but to me, being a sex worker and doing it really well,
being able to sell all that sex has to offer is a VERY complex,
multi-disciplinar thing that needs a higher education. It's not just doing
good blowjobs, it's about having a psychologyist's empathy, a doctor's
knowledge of the body (and of some diseases), a poet's tenderness...
Definitely not something that you learn by chance
Legal pProstitution? Yeah, but with a Master's degree needed, and a union
to avoid intrusions. Ii never liked amateurs...
I'm jumping in a little late on this, but for an interesting, sometimes
funny, and often nauseating look at the world of illiegal street
prostitution check out the Hughes brothers' documentary American
Pimp.
It is clear by the end of the film that by comparison women working in the
legal brothels have it about a thousand times better than those out on the
street.
____________________ Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.