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Author: Subject: Gay Marrige

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 656
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 23/3/2004 at 07:36 AM
Well, he isn't cracking down on the illegal immigrant situation like he should be doing - that's where he is trying to get the minority vote, which usually means more Democrat votes but at the same time, it does hurt some of the people working now (please don't hit me, not picking on immigrants in general just pointing out the "foreign nationale" issue and how it's being used in re-election). If anyone looked at LA Times' statistics (I would think they'd have a good idea with the Latino population since California has many of them), the Bush's popularity with their people increased since he made his proposals on what to do with the illegal immigrant situation. Sure it will require them renewing their card every now and then, but they get to stay - it's cheap labor for some of the greedier business men, what can I say. Personally, I think we should work with the ones here (maybe teach the younger generations some English) and start cracking down on the borders...but I know it wont happen anytime soon.

On top of it, the Mars rant and yes, the Gay Marriage issue is trying to wean him a bit "right" again. He's getting in dead heat with most moderate Republicans and middle-class Republicans for the fact that they are not happy with the way he dealt with the immigration issue (we went over it in American Government class and how politicans will do that). There's also a growing number of people that're not happy about how the war is turning out...so he is going to do some flip-flopping here and there, like most politicans do, to get the vote. I'm all for going to Mars, do not get me wrong, but I do not understand the revelance of the issue since it'd take the minimum of thirty years or so to get it going. Again, it's to impress his own party, which he is shunning right now.

He isn't trying to get just the Republican vote on the whole Gay Marriage thing, though, all fundamentalists in general are going to get turned on by the proposal. Many people in the South are actually Democrats as well as Republicans. People are quick to say the homophobia goes with the Repub's, but there's still a lot of religious people in the Southern Democrat population so he will pick them up too...assuming they're not 1 on the 1 to 5 Liberal-Conservative scale. Yes it seems the Repub's in the White House decide to make Homosexuality an issue for the party, but there's also the Log Cabin Republicans that're fighting it really hard...I'd not be surprised if they went berserk in short time over the issue, if not already. If you watch, though, both political parties barely get off the Homosexual issue...it's turned into a political debate right to a "Who's more opposed to homosexuality than the other" debate. I think there's better things to worry about, but I guess the public freak out over these little things too much...can't help but to roll my eyes.

For liability's sake, know that all the Republicans I talked to (as well as myself) were not voting for Bush in the primaries...even the die-hard Republicans.




 

Moderator




Posts: 37
Registered: 1/8/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 24/3/2004 at 01:09 AM
Well, since I only trust numbers, I thought I would introduce a few to the debate. Actually, scratch that... a debate needs two sides... this is more of a bitch session, but still, I want to bitch with the rest of you.

Now, this is all from an AP poll dated Jan 21, 2004 which I think is recent enough to still be accurate.

Should same sex marriages be legal?
Yes 41%
No 55%

These numbers are the scariest thing yet. Guess what guys, we're in the minority by a significant margin. This issue isn't about politicians mouthing off to wealthy constituents; this really is the voice of the people. You can see why the Bush administration has picked up on this issue so quickly. It allows Bush to placate his supporters on the right, and it forces Kerry to take a position (on a very emotional issue) that a majority of Americans disagree with or risk alienating his liberal base.

But that's what the Constitution is there for right? To protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority? Well that's where the first bit of good news comes in. While 55% of Americans feel that same sex marriages should be illegal, only 38% are in favor of a constitutional amendment stating such. That's not nearly enough support to get an amendment through.

The best news, though, is the age breakdown.

Age 18-29: legal 55, illegal 42
Age 65+: legal 21, illegal 75

Surprise surprise. It's the old people who want to keep antuquated traditions exactly as they have been for the past couple of centuries. Now we just have to wait about 20 years for them all to die off and same-sex marriages will be a no-brainer.

All of this info and more can be found at http://www.marriageequalityca.org/polling_data.php

 

Fanatic




Posts: 206
Registered: 1/1/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 29/3/2004 at 04:55 AM
The answer is simple: Don't let the elderly vote. Look I know they fought in Viet Nam and WW2 and they know things, but they're old. Soylent green their asses. I'm tired of hearing about them not knowing how to vote, and I'm even more tired of the fact the god-damned goverment is a bunch of old, prejudiced white men ,and the god dmaned voter are old, prejudiced white men and their wives. So I say this to all of you, a call to arms so to speak: If you see 'em, and they're over 65, eliminate them! Any, means, neccesary. Thug love, I'm out.

 

____________________
“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard. Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat anything.”
Faulkner

 

Member




Posts: 107
Registered: 26/9/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 29/3/2004 at 08:09 PM
you would think that with the state the economy is in that it would make sense to legalize gay marriages. it would be a contribution to the economy . once again right wing christianity makes it's mark, even if these said marriages are not accepable in a christian church that should not influence any political votes in this matter. there is a fine line drawn, separating church and state. homosexuals pay taxes like the rest of us so they deserve to marry like the rest of us. they are human beings. they should not be kept from adopting children and having a family, dammit if you pay taxes then your right to life, liberty & happiness should be recognised.

[Edited on 30/3/2004 by ariadne]

 

____________________

 

Fanatic




Posts: 499
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/3/2004 at 06:56 AM
The Bible has been the basis of your society since its inception. You only complain about it when it says something that inconveniences you. It inconveniences those outside it to the point of death every day, get a grip you fascist.

 

____________________
Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.

 

Member




Posts: 107
Registered: 26/9/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/3/2004 at 11:07 AM
fascist? look ,everybody,abbadon learned a knew word. awwwww.........

 

____________________

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/3/2004 at 02:56 PM
Abadon: you speak only partly correctly... you forget that the norther part of the country was deeply influenced by the french, the southern by the spaniards...

Reguardless... you state that we only complain when it is an inconvenience... by speaking in broad generalities about something you honestly have no idea in... less than 50% of the population claims to adhere to those tenets... and of that 50% most of them are the OLDER generation... UNFORTUNATELY... that generation is making the laws...

NOT... Until you can bring a well researched statement or argument to the table... chill...

Feral

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Fanatic




Posts: 499
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/3/2004 at 03:18 PM
You're telling me the Grench and the Spanish aren't Christian??? The moral code which rules American society is a primarily Biblical one. Whether it be the approach to welfare, legal system or simple family values. Things that are not mentioned in the Bible are often accepted, but those things opposed to by it rarely, if ever, make it into 'constitutional' law. Apart from the whole kosher thing obviuosly.

 

____________________
Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/3/2004 at 03:25 PM
Grench? Is that the plural of grinch? Or maybe a grinch wench.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Fanatic




Posts: 598
Registered: 24/8/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/3/2004 at 04:03 PM
I wonder what a lady grinch would look like?

 

____________________
Okay, dazzle me.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/3/2004 at 04:58 PM
1) I was making a reference to the past, not the present...
2) the government is not representative of its people at this point. Those that make the laws are from an earlier generation... the AVERAGE american is no longer christian... Until you have actually experienced a people, you have no room to talk...
3) again I say... Until you can bring a well researched statement or argument to the table... chill...

Feral

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.



Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Moderator




Posts: 37
Registered: 1/8/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 30/3/2004 at 05:42 PM
I'm not sure what you mean exactly when you say that the moral code which rules American society is a primarily biblical one. If you mean that most of the people in the U.S. are Christian and (at least nominally) support Christain values, then I would have to agree. These people also tend to support laws which reinforce their values (surprise surprise). Of course, according to the last UN survey, over 130 of the member nations (including the UK) were predominantly Christian, so this hardly makes the US unique.

But our legal system certainly isn't based on the Bible. If it was, we would be doing as the Bible recommends and putting people to death for working on the sabbath, eating shellfish, wearing garments of two different kinds of thread, and trimming the hair around their temples. In addition, I would have probably sold my sister into slavery by now to pay off my student loans, which the Bible is also ok with. Women would not be able to teach male children, speak in church, and, thanks to my favorite bible quote of all time, "If two Israelite men are fighting and the wife of one tries to rescue her husband by grabbing the testicles of the other man, her hand must be cut off without pity." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NLT)

Also, our system of government certainly isn't based on the Bible. In fact, our Constitution specifically mandates a separation between church and state. If you could say our government was based on any one school of thought, I would probably pin it on Enlightenment philosophy, but that's a whole other story. For the most part, our laws and government have been a pretty strong tool for the protection of religious minorities.

So in short, do we have a lot of religious conflict? Yes. Do we have to deal with a lot of powerful Christian assholes trying to force their views on everyone? Yes. Is the Bible the foundation for society and culture in the United States? Not hardly.

 

Occasional Poster




Posts: 28
Registered: 14/7/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 19/7/2004 at 03:43 AM
There is a law in America that prevents gay marriages?
Seems a bit odd.... forbidding gay marriages in the land that deemed itself the inventor of tolerance itself.... strange...
even round here it is now legal....
hum...

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 19/7/2004 at 05:49 AM
thank you for your dazzling social commentary... seems odd that our contry has never really claimed to be tollerant... just that we were a democracy... if you pay attention to the last 20 years of foreing policy, you would see that the government is far from tolerant...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 759
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 19/7/2004 at 07:14 AM
feral dont pretend a teenager has any grasp of history, reality, or even thier own genitals. let them go on hating "America" for whatever petty little make believe reason they want. and certainly dont try to explain that America was founded by the intolerant. it will just make my eyes bleed to have to read all that again.

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires away.

 

Member




Posts: 112
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 20/7/2004 at 12:30 AM
I was just arguing with Luke, my Oklahoman cousin, about gay marriage. I presented my usual argument, which is:

Religious reasoning cannot enter the argument. If you believe homosexuality is wrong, fine. Don't marry another guy. But you have no right to let your religious beliefs interfer with the lives of those who don't believe the same as you do. Banning gay marriage would be banning extramarital sex--morality applies to the individual.

Many people will argue that homosexuality is a sin, and should therefore be banned. I'm not arguing whether it is or not; all I'm saying is that the government cannot make it illegal on a moral basis. People will say, "yes, but like it or not, America is a religious government." But like Britva said, America is NOT a religious government. Many of our laws parallel Biblical laws, but not because they're Biblical laws; it's because they're just good laws. They're practical; they're utilitarian--the reason we don't kill is because it takes away another person's right to live. Practical. Most laws exist to prevent harm to others. But we can also make laws to prevent personal harm; e.g., the seatbelt law. The seatbelt law is fairly black-and-white: dying is harmful, and crashing into a guardrail without a seatbelt will probably kill you. But whether or not homosexuality is harmful . . . that's speculative. The Bible says that any sin a man commits is outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Try telling that to someone who does not believe in the Christian Bible. Religious arguments cannot be used in governmental debates; only arguments based on practicality.

I have yet to hear a good argument against homosexual marriage that is not religious. There is a weak argument that has to do with Darwinistic principles (procreation is difficult between two men or two women.) But the last time I checked, America did not have a problem with procreation.

Anyway, this argument with my cousin Luke took a different turn. He said, "Fine, but I wouldn't want a homosexual couple adopting my child." Later in the day a similar conversation was going on, and I learned something that I find disturbing. The state of Oklahoma does not recognize other states' gay adoptions. Essentially, if a gay couple legally adopts a child in Washington or California or anywhere, then moves to Oklahoma, the adoption is negated. This means that parents may be denied access to their legally-adopted children.

'Course, this is Oklahoma, where it's illegal to get tattoos . . .

[Edited on 7/20/2004 by Andree]

 

____________________
< / hate >

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 20/7/2004 at 04:03 AM
that is funny... cause oklahoma city has a couple tatoo shops...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Member




Posts: 112
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 20/7/2004 at 08:16 AM
The tattoo shops in OKC are usually underground-type shops. Come cops just look the other way. When I was in Norman last week, I asked a tattoo artist all about it while a friend was getting some ink done. This guy works underground, which means he has no taxable income, and I'm sure the IRS finds that very suspicious . . .

 

____________________
< / hate >

 

Administrator




Posts: 317
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Online

  posted on 20/7/2004 at 08:48 AM
Does oklahoma recognize other state's tattoos ?

 

____________________
So Sayeth Me

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1570
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 20/7/2004 at 12:49 PM
Britva, just to let you know, "polls" mean absolutely nothing, ESPECIALLY if they come from the press. All they do is spit numbers and percents out at you, they don't tell you WHO was polled, how many people, in what area of the nation (yes, it matters), and other important facts that make up the stats and keep them "clean". I'm sure if they polled 500 homosexuals on whether or not they should be allowed to marry, they would get at least 95% approval. But lets say the go to the "bible belt" and ask middle aged married heterosexuals you would probably get about 80% disapproval. The numbers being 45% yes 55% no is fishy, makes it seem like "ooo it's so close but that's the way the ball bounces folks" with NO information of demographics polled. Plus you have to take into account the viewership or readership of AP or whatever "news" organization, do they have a mostly liberal or fundamentalist patronage? Fox news network is owned by republicans and has a mostly republican viewership, and their polls they take (mostly by having viewers call in to vote) usually lean toward conservative results on issues. Same with more "liberal" networks. I don't trust polls, especially on tv. I trust ones that give me stats along with the percents. And even then, they're probably still lying to you.

I personally dont' see what the big deal is. What, they're going to screw up privatised healthcare by being able to claim their spouse as a dependent? You mean, just like heterosexuals? What, they're going to wreak havoc on social security by claiming their spouse as a dependent? Just like heteros? They're going to take advantage of marriage tax breaks and family tax breaks? Just like heteros? Wow, all those things seem like RIGHTS and benifits of the american citizens.....so aren't they citizens too? I honestly don't think that it's anyone else's goddamned say what someone else does with their life. It shouldn't even BE a debate. A denial of rights, an injustice to one is an injustice to all, but apparently that doesn't come into effect until it happens to YOU.

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 
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