When i first read this, I wanted to ask you what you thought "gothic
beliefs" actually are so bettie could have a good laugh. Im not busy
imagining you trying to put together a list of "gothic" beliefs. no really,
Im not. Not even a little (snicker)
And, as Mistress of Blood Orgies, I am really really tempted to ask you to
explain GOTH to us, which drugs are important to being goth, and what
lifestyle choices one MUST make to uphold thier "goth" position. Dont
worry, that joke was meant for the members here, not you.
What do you say kids? wanna see this person's vision of goth?
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 6/8/2004 at 08:01 PM
ok people? want to know what i feel gothic is? if a few people ask then i
will tell. i dont claim to know a definitive answer, but feel free to laugh
at me more if i tell and it doesnt agree with what you think. i can take
it. well, id have to wouldnt i?
i would still like to know, although exposing my belly for a stabbing, if
the idea of an appropriate gothic drug amuses anyone else though.
and maybe i will one day find out about member only jokes...
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
Andree
Member
Posts: 112 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 6/8/2004 at 10:36 PM
Worm, you are obviously dying to tell us all what you think "gothic" is, so
I'll take your bait. Tell us. If your answer itself is not amusing, maybe
callei, bettie, feral or any other markedly opinionated member will find
the argument worth their energy; in either case the rest of us get a nice
show.
____________________ < / hate >
Abbadon
Fanatic
Posts: 499 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 06:41 AM
I think someone just called you out, o fallen star. Step up to the plate
and show them what you got! Don't worry that you have better reasoning
skiils than the rest of them put together, they don't know that!
____________________ Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 08:32 AM
I think that gothic is a romantic format used to explore the inner self,
confronting darker topics and imagery and challenging what society calls
evil. It is a questioning of conventional wisdom and challenging of the
rational stable world view that many hold. Horror and mystery are intergral
parts to Gothism. The modern gothic movement, however takes this, adds loud
guitars, removes the challenge, and results in linkin park.
Thats my opinion, now its time to chuck it in a blender, because i suspect
its too hackneyed or something.
To continue with the spirit of the original post i think that the drugs to
go with this are opium for its romantic value, absinthe goes without
saying, and mild psychadelics.
Have fun.
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 09:35 AM
Nihilism is a part of Romanticism, depending on who you read.
I do not think that Goth is necessarily nihilistic, however.
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 09:42 AM
“I think that gothic is a romantic format used to explore the inner self,
confronting darker topics and imagery and challenging what society calls
evil.”
This is generally the opening phrase of something like this. Which
societies? What are “darker” topics? Does this have something to do with
Christian guilt or with Marxism? And what do you mean by romantic? Sexy?
Lit by candles? Divorced from reality by illusion, superstition, and
repressed desires? What inner self? What kind of evil? Child molestation or
bad table manners?
Since you use the word evil, we can assume you come from a Christian
background that taught you to hate yourself. No really we can. Guess what?
Most of the world, and particularly most Goths weren’t raised this way.
Since you use the word Romantic, we can assume that you want to live a life
that is larger than a “real” life and that you fail to see the majesty and
mystery all around you.
“Inner-self” tells us two things; one that you see the world as black and
white/good and evil/ on and off, and that you don’t live your life openly
to others. It also hints that you are trying to heal from Christian
upbringing. Yes it tells us all that. Funny huh?
“It is a questioning of conventional wisdom and challenging of the rational
stable worldview that many hold.”
I think most of us can agree that teens question the “conventional
wisdom”, and since many people start to express Goth-ness as teenagers,
then we can say that “Goth” questions conventional wisdom in its infancy
perhaps. “Conventional wisdom” is an emotional phrase with no concrete or
implicit definition since it only expresses “ideas that show up in some
sit-coms as the butt of jokes”. Like most of what you have said so far, it
tells us more about your damage than about your beliefs or hopes for your
life. Most people that get past 10th grade (American schools, about age 16)
learn a worldview that is based on strife and struggle between countries
and classes. I have difficulty understanding where you have gotten the idea
that there is a sense of stability in a worldview.
So what does this tell us about you? That you given a chance to express
your brain, you express your emotions and that you haven’t really thought
about what it is your are rejecting yet. And possibly that you believe that
war is “Stable” and don’t want to join the military, but I am stretching
there a bit.
“Horror and mystery are integral parts to Gothism.”
Horror as in scary movies, the genocide in Rhowanda, or the monster under
the bed? Or as in things that Christians are taught to believe are “evil”?
(I would really like an answer to this one. I still don’t get the
definition of horror as used in movies.) And by mystery do you mean Agatha
Christie or “what the hell is in this sandwich!?! And when the hell am I
going use vectors in my daily life!?!” or mystery in a “mystical” (meaning
aspects of other cultures’ faith structures) sense? Again your use of words
that have multiple means about which you aren’t clear tells us more about
you than about Goth. In this case it also tells us that you are focusing on
things that you think will shock and startle you since you have guilt
(there is that word again!) about having to soft and easy of a life and
that you are aware that there is a HUGE universe out there about which you
know next to nothing.
You definition implies that Goths want to be even more scared and confused
that they started out. I wonder about that.
"The modern gothic movement, however takes this, adds loud guitars, removes
the challenge, and results in linkin park."
This also tells us way more about you than about Goth. This tells us about
how old you are, what kind of school you went to, and how much mass media
you have consumed. It tells us that you have never paid attention to the
lyrics of a Cure song or understood the lyrics of a Skinny Puppy song. (Yes
that info dates me and tells you lots about me too)
"Thats my opinion, now its time to chuck it in a blender, because i suspect
its too hackneyed or something."
Maybe its just that you weren’t ready for the challenge of telling us
about other people and could only tell us about yourself in yet one more
plea for attention.
"To continue with the spirit of the original post i think that the drugs to
go with this are opium for its romantic value, absinthe goes without
saying, and mild psychedelics."
There is a slight hypocrisy here; you denigrate linkin park for not being
more challenging, yet you suggest that Goths should take drugs that sedate
them and keep them from functioning or challenging much more than the green
fairy.
Historically, the most used drugs in the Black Clad masses have been
caffeine, cigs, alcohol, acid, and cocaine/methamphetamines, with heroin
and X coming in about the same place as vitamins and smart drinks. And yes
there have been some pretty big studies on it.
All and I think that was elucidating. I think the only one he left out was
“it comes from the inside”. He got points for “its all about death”, “its
all about evil”, “its all about confusion”, and “its all about running
away”.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
Andree
Member
Posts: 112 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 10:29 AM
See, now wasn't that fun?
____________________ < / hate >
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 10:30 AM
The society in which an individual goth lives. Yes, the darker topics are
all about christian guilt. It was this that the likes of Poe pushed
against.
Romanticism was a literary movement of the 19th century.
Inner self is how i referred to what people see as their thought
structures, sub-conscious and their personality matrices.
I do come from a christian background, but am no christian, so points there
I disagree with your reading of inner self. i have just told you what i
think of it as. what you write there tells more about you than me i
think.
Conventional Wisdom is what a majority hold to be true.
Many, many people find stability in a world view, whether it be a fluffy
clouds and bunny rabbits view ripe to be blown away at the first sign of
personal tragedy, or a cynical pessemistic world view that is made stronger
by trial and is unaffected by joy. Stability is what world views are there
for.
Horror ranging from genocide in rwanda, a very tangible horror that we can
see and is real, ranging to the less definite horror of the thingy under
the bed. that it is under the bed and we cannot see it nor can we know that
it is there. an exploration of these horrors on the psyche. Mystery as in
guilt. I was non-specific because i wanted to keep it short. And the idea
of 'what the hell is in this sandwich' is one that i feel would be a lovely
addition to the gothic culture :p
Oh come on, give me some credit here, i know that none of that can shock or
startle, and that youve probably seen it all before.
It is implied that they want to, perhaps, but i meant that the fear and
confusion are explored through my vision of gothic, rather than
amplified.
OK, i was blasé about my definition of modern goth. I love the cure,
bauhaus and the new romantic movement which were integral to the creation
of what a modern goth is.
I was referring to the paint by numbers goths that infest my nightclubs
with their four piercings each (one in the tongue, two on one ear and one
in the other), and their chained up hoodies.
I feel that what people see as gothic varies so much from person to person
that any statement on what gothism is cannot help but be a personal
expression. I even said as much in my previous post.
Are you trying to tell me that Kublei Kahan, written on opium, was not a
great work? Are you saying that Oscar Wilde, absinthe drinker
extraordinaire was not challenging? is it the case that Byron and Shelley,
dope fiends the pair of them, did not produce some of the greatest works in
the english language. some of the greatest gothic work even. How about
Toulouse Latrec? Notorious for his Absinthe consumption.
I know what people do take. i was expanding on my conciet of an apropriate
drug for gothic views. It amused me, but apparently no one else.
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
Abbadon
Fanatic
Posts: 499 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:07 AM
My hate comes of to you! now genii like you and I have an excuse for
narcotics abuse! I wonder what everybody elses excuse is?!
____________________ Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.
Shade
Fanatic
Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:40 AM
Two major points here, first, Those artists, authors and painters alike
were the geniuses, not the drugs they took. The narcotics for which they
were famed were not the genius, nor the inspiration for the works. The
artists took those drugs to soothe their minds to a level at which they
could create, or to curb the creative urge to such a level that they could
sleep. One major thing that people over look about Kubla Khan is the fact
that it was written after the drugs had worn off. His dreams woke him up
after the laudanum had worn off!
____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me
Shade
Fanatic
Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:40 AM
Oh and two...whether you two are the same person or just two of a kind,
neither one of you are amusing.
____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness
with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of
religion.
/>
-Me
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:53 AM
Good lord, you take things so seriously. So you dont share some of my
humour. fucking deal with it.
and either way, my point about their drug taking still stands. their drug
habits did not prevent them from creating.
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
Abbadon
Fanatic
Posts: 499 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:54 AM
Since when have you become the mouthpiece for all artists every? Where do
you dig up these amazing revalations which you ardently believe are real?
Take a chill pill man! I hear Laudanum is pretty good for that!
____________________ Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.
wood; no... you have to deal with it... you come here, expecting to fit
right in... we are a community, which means we have established standards
and mannerisms agreed upon for communication... as you seek to fucking fit
in, the responsiblity fall upon you to make YOURSELF understood... do not
get pissy with us because you do not make it clear when you are serious, or
sarcarstic or humorous... you can make a statement to that effect, thereby
making it clear, but you shoose not to do so... I was kind, now I am not...
and I will not be ever again as I am tired of etting dirt kicked in my face
for it...
I give you a couple options... 1)take your whiney, argumentative, and
bitchy self somewhere else where they think or act like you do thereby
relieving you of the responsibility to be undedrstood...... OR 2) make an
effort and prove those that think you are a goober wrong... prove yourself
brilliant.... OR 3) go to a local goth club where they will thrive on it...
OR 4) go fuck yourself... I don't care which, but pick one, get over
yourself and realise that fault lies with the continually misunderstood...
The Feral Has Spoken!
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Nihilism: Philosophy. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all
existence. A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing
can be known or communicated. Rejection of all distinctions in moral or
religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of
morality or religious belief. The belief that destruction of existing
political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement. A
diffuse, revolutionary movement of mid 19th-century Russia that scorned
authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism, and radical
change in society and government through terrorism and assassination. A
delusion, experienced in some mental disorders, that the world or one's
mind, body, or self does not exist.
Romanticism An artistic and intellectual movement originating in Europe in
the late 18th century and characterized by a heightened interest in nature,
emphasis on the individual's expression of emotion and imagination,
departure from the attitudes and forms of classicism, and rebellion against
established social rules and conventions. Romantic quality or spirit in
thought, expression, or action.
I can see the scorn for convention being related, but the two seem to be
almost mutually exclusive...
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Abbadon
Fanatic
Posts: 499 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 7/8/2004 at 04:48 PM
Feral. Feral, Feral, Feral... You are a very angry young man. Time had it
when one could channel this hatred for a life unlike ones own into a
contructive medium. An artistic expression of a difference of ideals, as
indead all art can be interpreted as being. Sadly for you this no longer
appears to be the case. The only way you seem now able to communicate your
feelings seems to be through bad language and insultimg remarks. You choose
to communicate yourself in a very direct way, as is the want with the
unrefined customs of the American consumer. Perhaps those who choose a more
subtle approach deserve to be considered more carefully, rather than in a
dismissive attitude.
But back to the discussion in hand... Thank you for your definitions. I,
however, own my very own dictionary. complete with a comprable entry under
each of the definitions you have given. To simply state these definitions
is no argument. It is the foundations of a building that you have left it
to others to build. Whether it is because you lack knowledge in this field,
or whether you simply lack the ability to apply the knowledge you have to a
cohesive argument, I would leave it to those who have a little more
experience in the subject. Such as, for example, my asteemed friend
Wormwood here or the starter of this topic, the always intelligent (and
beautiful) Psychopixi.
____________________ Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.