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Author: Subject: Goths and Drugs

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 759
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 05:27 PM
When i first read this, I wanted to ask you what you thought "gothic beliefs" actually are so bettie could have a good laugh. Im not busy imagining you trying to put together a list of "gothic" beliefs. no really, Im not. Not even a little (snicker)

And, as Mistress of Blood Orgies, I am really really tempted to ask you to explain GOTH to us, which drugs are important to being goth, and what lifestyle choices one MUST make to uphold thier "goth" position. Dont worry, that joke was meant for the members here, not you.

What do you say kids? wanna see this person's vision of goth?

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires away.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1570
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 07:15 PM
wait!



lemme get wasted first.......

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 08:01 PM
ok people? want to know what i feel gothic is? if a few people ask then i will tell. i dont claim to know a definitive answer, but feel free to laugh at me more if i tell and it doesnt agree with what you think. i can take it. well, id have to wouldnt i?
i would still like to know, although exposing my belly for a stabbing, if the idea of an appropriate gothic drug amuses anyone else though.
and maybe i will one day find out about member only jokes...

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.

And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Member




Posts: 112
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 10:36 PM
Worm, you are obviously dying to tell us all what you think "gothic" is, so I'll take your bait. Tell us. If your answer itself is not amusing, maybe callei, bettie, feral or any other markedly opinionated member will find the argument worth their energy; in either case the rest of us get a nice show.

 

____________________
< / hate >

 

Fanatic




Posts: 499
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 06:41 AM
I think someone just called you out, o fallen star. Step up to the plate and show them what you got! Don't worry that you have better reasoning skiils than the rest of them put together, they don't know that!

 

____________________
Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 08:32 AM
I think that gothic is a romantic format used to explore the inner self, confronting darker topics and imagery and challenging what society calls evil. It is a questioning of conventional wisdom and challenging of the rational stable world view that many hold. Horror and mystery are intergral parts to Gothism. The modern gothic movement, however takes this, adds loud guitars, removes the challenge, and results in linkin park.
Thats my opinion, now its time to chuck it in a blender, because i suspect its too hackneyed or something.
To continue with the spirit of the original post i think that the drugs to go with this are opium for its romantic value, absinthe goes without saying, and mild psychadelics.
Have fun.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.



And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 09:24 AM
nihilism is romantic?

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 09:35 AM
Nihilism is a part of Romanticism, depending on who you read.
I do not think that Goth is necessarily nihilistic, however.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.





And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 759
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 09:42 AM
“I think that gothic is a romantic format used to explore the inner self, confronting darker topics and imagery and challenging what society calls evil.”

This is generally the opening phrase of something like this. Which societies? What are “darker” topics? Does this have something to do with Christian guilt or with Marxism? And what do you mean by romantic? Sexy? Lit by candles? Divorced from reality by illusion, superstition, and repressed desires? What inner self? What kind of evil? Child molestation or bad table manners?

Since you use the word evil, we can assume you come from a Christian background that taught you to hate yourself. No really we can. Guess what? Most of the world, and particularly most Goths weren’t raised this way. Since you use the word Romantic, we can assume that you want to live a life that is larger than a “real” life and that you fail to see the majesty and mystery all around you.

“Inner-self” tells us two things; one that you see the world as black and white/good and evil/ on and off, and that you don’t live your life openly to others. It also hints that you are trying to heal from Christian upbringing. Yes it tells us all that. Funny huh?

“It is a questioning of conventional wisdom and challenging of the rational stable worldview that many hold.”

I think most of us can agree that teens question the “conventional wisdom”, and since many people start to express Goth-ness as teenagers, then we can say that “Goth” questions conventional wisdom in its infancy perhaps. “Conventional wisdom” is an emotional phrase with no concrete or implicit definition since it only expresses “ideas that show up in some sit-coms as the butt of jokes”. Like most of what you have said so far, it tells us more about your damage than about your beliefs or hopes for your life. Most people that get past 10th grade (American schools, about age 16) learn a worldview that is based on strife and struggle between countries and classes. I have difficulty understanding where you have gotten the idea that there is a sense of stability in a worldview.

So what does this tell us about you? That you given a chance to express your brain, you express your emotions and that you haven’t really thought about what it is your are rejecting yet. And possibly that you believe that war is “Stable” and don’t want to join the military, but I am stretching there a bit.

“Horror and mystery are integral parts to Gothism.”

Horror as in scary movies, the genocide in Rhowanda, or the monster under the bed? Or as in things that Christians are taught to believe are “evil”? (I would really like an answer to this one. I still don’t get the definition of horror as used in movies.) And by mystery do you mean Agatha Christie or “what the hell is in this sandwich!?! And when the hell am I going use vectors in my daily life!?!” or mystery in a “mystical” (meaning aspects of other cultures’ faith structures) sense? Again your use of words that have multiple means about which you aren’t clear tells us more about you than about Goth. In this case it also tells us that you are focusing on things that you think will shock and startle you since you have guilt (there is that word again!) about having to soft and easy of a life and that you are aware that there is a HUGE universe out there about which you know next to nothing.

You definition implies that Goths want to be even more scared and confused that they started out. I wonder about that.

"The modern gothic movement, however takes this, adds loud guitars, removes the challenge, and results in linkin park."

This also tells us way more about you than about Goth. This tells us about how old you are, what kind of school you went to, and how much mass media you have consumed. It tells us that you have never paid attention to the lyrics of a Cure song or understood the lyrics of a Skinny Puppy song. (Yes that info dates me and tells you lots about me too)

"Thats my opinion, now its time to chuck it in a blender, because i suspect its too hackneyed or something."

Maybe its just that you weren’t ready for the challenge of telling us about other people and could only tell us about yourself in yet one more plea for attention.

"To continue with the spirit of the original post i think that the drugs to go with this are opium for its romantic value, absinthe goes without saying, and mild psychedelics."

There is a slight hypocrisy here; you denigrate linkin park for not being more challenging, yet you suggest that Goths should take drugs that sedate them and keep them from functioning or challenging much more than the green fairy.

Historically, the most used drugs in the Black Clad masses have been caffeine, cigs, alcohol, acid, and cocaine/methamphetamines, with heroin and X coming in about the same place as vitamins and smart drinks. And yes there have been some pretty big studies on it.

All and I think that was elucidating. I think the only one he left out was “it comes from the inside”. He got points for “its all about death”, “its all about evil”, “its all about confusion”, and “its all about running away”.

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.

 

Member




Posts: 112
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 10:29 AM
See, now wasn't that fun?

 

____________________
< / hate >

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 10:30 AM
The society in which an individual goth lives. Yes, the darker topics are all about christian guilt. It was this that the likes of Poe pushed against.
Romanticism was a literary movement of the 19th century.
Inner self is how i referred to what people see as their thought structures, sub-conscious and their personality matrices.
I do come from a christian background, but am no christian, so points there
I disagree with your reading of inner self. i have just told you what i think of it as. what you write there tells more about you than me i think.
Conventional Wisdom is what a majority hold to be true.
Many, many people find stability in a world view, whether it be a fluffy clouds and bunny rabbits view ripe to be blown away at the first sign of personal tragedy, or a cynical pessemistic world view that is made stronger by trial and is unaffected by joy. Stability is what world views are there for.
Horror ranging from genocide in rwanda, a very tangible horror that we can see and is real, ranging to the less definite horror of the thingy under the bed. that it is under the bed and we cannot see it nor can we know that it is there. an exploration of these horrors on the psyche. Mystery as in guilt. I was non-specific because i wanted to keep it short. And the idea of 'what the hell is in this sandwich' is one that i feel would be a lovely addition to the gothic culture :p
Oh come on, give me some credit here, i know that none of that can shock or startle, and that youve probably seen it all before.
It is implied that they want to, perhaps, but i meant that the fear and confusion are explored through my vision of gothic, rather than amplified.
OK, i was blasé about my definition of modern goth. I love the cure, bauhaus and the new romantic movement which were integral to the creation of what a modern goth is.
I was referring to the paint by numbers goths that infest my nightclubs with their four piercings each (one in the tongue, two on one ear and one in the other), and their chained up hoodies.
I feel that what people see as gothic varies so much from person to person that any statement on what gothism is cannot help but be a personal expression. I even said as much in my previous post.
Are you trying to tell me that Kublei Kahan, written on opium, was not a great work? Are you saying that Oscar Wilde, absinthe drinker extraordinaire was not challenging? is it the case that Byron and Shelley, dope fiends the pair of them, did not produce some of the greatest works in the english language. some of the greatest gothic work even. How about Toulouse Latrec? Notorious for his Absinthe consumption.
I know what people do take. i was expanding on my conciet of an apropriate drug for gothic views. It amused me, but apparently no one else.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.







And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 499
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:07 AM
My hate comes of to you! now genii like you and I have an excuse for narcotics abuse! I wonder what everybody elses excuse is?!

 

____________________
Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 289
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:40 AM
Two major points here, first, Those artists, authors and painters alike were the geniuses, not the drugs they took. The narcotics for which they were famed were not the genius, nor the inspiration for the works. The artists took those drugs to soothe their minds to a level at which they could create, or to curb the creative urge to such a level that they could sleep. One major thing that people over look about Kubla Khan is the fact that it was written after the drugs had worn off. His dreams woke him up after the laudanum had worn off!

 

____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me

 

Fanatic




Posts: 289
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:40 AM
Oh and two...whether you two are the same person or just two of a kind, neither one of you are amusing.

 

____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion. />
-Me

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:53 AM
Good lord, you take things so seriously. So you dont share some of my humour. fucking deal with it.
and either way, my point about their drug taking still stands. their drug habits did not prevent them from creating.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.









And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 499
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:54 AM
Since when have you become the mouthpiece for all artists every? Where do you dig up these amazing revalations which you ardently believe are real? Take a chill pill man! I hear Laudanum is pretty good for that!

 

____________________
Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 01:25 PM
wood; no... you have to deal with it... you come here, expecting to fit right in... we are a community, which means we have established standards and mannerisms agreed upon for communication... as you seek to fucking fit in, the responsiblity fall upon you to make YOURSELF understood... do not get pissy with us because you do not make it clear when you are serious, or sarcarstic or humorous... you can make a statement to that effect, thereby making it clear, but you shoose not to do so... I was kind, now I am not... and I will not be ever again as I am tired of etting dirt kicked in my face for it...


I give you a couple options... 1)take your whiney, argumentative, and bitchy self somewhere else where they think or act like you do thereby relieving you of the responsibility to be undedrstood...... OR 2) make an effort and prove those that think you are a goober wrong... prove yourself brilliant.... OR 3) go to a local goth club where they will thrive on it... OR 4) go fuck yourself... I don't care which, but pick one, get over yourself and realise that fault lies with the continually misunderstood...

The Feral Has Spoken!

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.



Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 01:28 PM
were the drugs the key... how do you explain teh 99% of users of those substances taht are complete fuckwits?

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 01:34 PM
Nihilism: Philosophy. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence. A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief. The belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement. A diffuse, revolutionary movement of mid 19th-century Russia that scorned authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism, and radical change in society and government through terrorism and assassination. A delusion, experienced in some mental disorders, that the world or one's mind, body, or self does not exist.

Romanticism An artistic and intellectual movement originating in Europe in the late 18th century and characterized by a heightened interest in nature, emphasis on the individual's expression of emotion and imagination, departure from the attitudes and forms of classicism, and rebellion against established social rules and conventions. Romantic quality or spirit in thought, expression, or action.

I can see the scorn for convention being related, but the two seem to be almost mutually exclusive...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Fanatic




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Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 04:48 PM
Feral. Feral, Feral, Feral... You are a very angry young man. Time had it when one could channel this hatred for a life unlike ones own into a contructive medium. An artistic expression of a difference of ideals, as indead all art can be interpreted as being. Sadly for you this no longer appears to be the case. The only way you seem now able to communicate your feelings seems to be through bad language and insultimg remarks. You choose to communicate yourself in a very direct way, as is the want with the unrefined customs of the American consumer. Perhaps those who choose a more subtle approach deserve to be considered more carefully, rather than in a dismissive attitude.

But back to the discussion in hand... Thank you for your definitions. I, however, own my very own dictionary. complete with a comprable entry under each of the definitions you have given. To simply state these definitions is no argument. It is the foundations of a building that you have left it to others to build. Whether it is because you lack knowledge in this field, or whether you simply lack the ability to apply the knowledge you have to a cohesive argument, I would leave it to those who have a little more experience in the subject. Such as, for example, my asteemed friend Wormwood here or the starter of this topic, the always intelligent (and beautiful) Psychopixi.

 

____________________
Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.

 
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