necromancer
Occasional Poster   Posts: 48 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 8/4/2002 at 12:54 AM |
"Immoral" is defined as being a) not in conformity with the accepted
standards and moral code of a community. b) not in conformity with
accepted principles of right and wrong behavior.
Do you consider yourself as having higher/lower standards of character and
conduct morals in relation to non-goths? ____________________
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Dolorosa
Extreme Fanatic   Posts: 856 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/5/2002 at 06:48 AM |
| If I could figure out what the hell I was talking about half the time, I´d
be able to give a definite answer...so I guess I´ll have to guess, and I
guess probably not. I´m the only person who´s been with me every second
since birth, which means I´m the only person who knows every thought I´ve
thought, every deed I have done and every cowardly and courageous impulse I
have felt. Maybe someone out there views me as a person of high morals, but
I´m the only one that knows what a truly dispicable beast I am...Yahooo!
:lol: ____________________
In the valley of the Goats, the Goat Fucker is King
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 26/4/2002 at 05:47 AM |
Well, you seem to think it is capable of judging its inabilities. Is it
such a stretch from there to think of the human mind judging itself in a
positive way?
Unless you´re a super-intelligent alien from outerspace with special powers
for deducting the limitations of the human mind. Otherwise, I assume you
used a human mind to produce your judgement.
Ain´t that what a mind is for, anyway? ____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
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Anonymous
Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 25/4/2002 at 01:30 PM |
| What is the human mind that it should delude itself as to its ability to
judge itself? ____________________
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Des
Coward   Posts: 8 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/4/2002 at 10:18 AM |
hmm...morality. tricky issue, that. i believe a common mistake is being
made here. ´morals´ are a universal code that apply for any sub-group in a
given society. but, as perception dictates reality, there can be no
universal code. therefore, no one person can be any more or less moral than
another. i think what need be in question here are value systems.
comparitively, i do not believe in ´better´ or ´worse´, ´more´ or ´less.´
only in differences. while i may disagree with the system one person or
group upholds (or doesn´t, for that matter *smirk*) i do not discount its
possible validity, only its relative truth in my world. now, this is not to
say that i don´t have venemous reactions to that which i deem unfair or
unjustified. quite the contrary. but in moments of armchair philosophy i
attempt to view a larger picture. if we are a sub-group, and if that
sub-group claims to be more open than most, than we cannot devalue other
systems of values because we do not adhere to thier particular incarnation.
sidenote : i am new here, but have been reading along for some weeks now.
tis a lovely site, and i am pleased to be a part of it.
*luscious nightmares all* ____________________
'i am a little world made cunningly of elements and an angelike spirit, but
black sin hath betrayed to endless night my worlds both parts, and oh, both
parts must die...'
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pAris
Member   Posts: 115 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/4/2002 at 08:26 PM |
| I believe Oscar Wilde put it best when he said "I may be lying in the
gutter, but at least I´m looking at the stars." ____________________
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Arthegarn
Member  Posts: 79 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/4/2002 at 02:58 PM |
| Higher. But not because I am a goth. Most people, Goth or no Goth, don´t
have any morals whatsoever. Ortega y Gasset (A Spanish philosopher of early
20th century) had an interesting opinion on moral. He made a difference
between moral and morality (moralidad), and then said that most "new
morals" are about justifying not having any moral at all. ____________________
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/4/2002 at 06:15 AM |
| So, would the conclusion be, if you´re going to be a fake, be an
interesting and original one? ____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
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Devin
Administrator   Posts: 317 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Online
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posted on 11/4/2002 at 12:47 AM |
To continue and expand on that thought a little bit...
Most of the people we´ve been referring to as "Them" learn their
moral standards from their friends and parents. The people we´re referring
to as "Us" generally reject those morals and make up their own. That´s
probably why they´re easier to follow. ____________________
So Sayeth Me
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callei
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/4/2002 at 11:50 PM |
just to loop this all back around... since laziness is considered immoral
(eg not up to accepted standards and moral code of a community.) would that
make you immoral? giggle. this is a rhetorical question, or at least i hope
so.
meanwhile back at the farm...
I think trying to decide if "goths" are more moral or less moral
than our host culture requires that we ask ourselves how often we betray
our own moral codes as compared to how often individuals in the host
culture betray thiers.
Its not the morals as an abstract idea
that matters, i think, but rather a groups adherence to those morals that
counts.
Most "goths" that i know are very true to
whatever morals they have and try very hard to live by the rules that they
set around thier lives. I dont know any goths in the closet because they
think thier sex drive is immoral. I dont know any goths that hate
themselves for thier drug use because it is immoral. Nor do i know any
goths that beat thier children and claim that it is moral.
I know
non-blackclad people that do all these things as well as lie, cheat, steal,
and harm while thinking that it is bad for them to lie, cheat, steal, or
harm.
I think, in some way goths are more moral when
judged against the host cultures because they are less likely to do things
that cause themselves shame just to hurt themselves. ____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
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Unregistered
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posted on 10/4/2002 at 10:20 PM |
I feel that the this will be my final post on the subject unless asked to
respond: I believe that I have neither higher or lower standards because
everyone as an individual has the possibility of having multiple morals to
abide by in changing circumstances which can be extended infinitely further
to encompass more possibilities. Since some, not all, persons that relate
themselves as being goth say it is a state of mind which classifies, or
presents them as such, I would consider myself to exhibit and present
myself as a person beholden to no-one´s conformity to society and any of
those who do not consider themselves a part of society simply because I am
me.
Callei: I would have it that you pardon me for
the abrubt way I state things if you can find it in your being to forgive
any insults that you thought were being implied towards you and what "I"
consider your own (people, friends, brothers/sisters, etc.).
All in all I felt that it was just some verbal sparring that was
being used to open one another´s eyes towards the other´s point of view and
to make one think.
As for the signing in bit...I´m
home, not at school so I don´t have to try and find the password to even
log in...I´m a bit lazy in that respect considering it takes to much time
on my part ´cos I don´t fully appreciate the speed of the internet there.
-Zalosisae ____________________
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callei
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/4/2002 at 07:51 PM |
Final points before Meranda tells me to play nice...
You still havent actually voiced an opinion on the state of morals
in "goth" culture, unless that opinion is that the people that post here
all live by, um, either others people´s moral codes, or thier own.
You still seem confused about the differences between
poetry and prose. If you would like i can recommend some good sites that
will help you understand the various forms and thier most common
useages.
The intricasies of the English language make
it a very difficult tongue to learn, and the connotation of words can be
very tricky. Gammar can be a minefield for the newbie, and word selection
is always a delicate art. In reading your response to my crankiness, it was
clear to me that you were insulting me, Shmeng as a site, and my "way with
words". If that was not your intent, that is still what you conveyed.
I was using the royal (or holy) we. no seriously, i was
using the groupings that you had defined, the "Normals", us evil bastards,
and you.
Thanks for logging in this time. ____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
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Unregistered
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posted on 10/4/2002 at 05:18 PM |
Callei; to put it in layman´s terms...words that are easily read...the way
in which I wrote that paragraph...your second quote...I made a point of
saying "...almost all of the paragraphs are what everybody lives by
today..." so as not to include everyone in general, but those that tend to
classify themselves into separate groups in our society depending on their
own point of view...secondly it was my piece of writing therefore I´d think
that everyone would put two and two together and take it as something seen
from my own point of view, not in a point of view that assumes that I´d be
speaking for anyone else. Also, nowhere did I describe any group (as in
you thought I was implicating that a group was evil...), but I did put them
in groups as I saw fit, and put a title on them that could be self evident
on what my own feelings were. Furthermore the only attention I had hoped
to obtain with my original posting was that it would be clear that it was
my point of view being used and therefore no-one could claim it as theirs.
Nice classifications and implications you have in
your own paragraph...
Quote:
"...that we need you to tell us to look
around and see things, that you your way of expressing this oppinion could
get that point across, and that you speak for others."
Interesting how you claim that I speak for others and yet you do
the same exact thing yourself that you accuse me of doing...
As for form of the way I posted my original post I aplogize that you
assumed that it was poetry and/or prose...I was in fault for not being
clearer which I think I admitted the last time I posted...
It is is self-evident to me who I am and what motivates me to define
myself further in this life...
-Zalosisae
[ This message
was edited by: Zalosisae on 2002-04-10 17:21 ] ____________________
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callei
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/4/2002 at 01:48 PM |
Quote:
"For people supposed so different compared to the
normals that go about the daily grind you sure are eager to suppress a
point of view that you don´t understand if it looks anything remotely easy
to classify. "
The implication here is that a)some
group called "Normals" like to suppress things that they can classify and
that they are evil for doing so, b) that you have a pointo f view that we
can classify and c) that by supressing that point of view we are somehow as
evil as the "Normals".
This was an attepmt to shame us into
allowing you to bother and annoy others.
The connotation of the
word "different" here was one of opposite, meaning that you assumed that we
would be opposite these "Normals" and not either classify or suppress that
whcih we could classify.
Quote:
"I wanted it
to show that almost all of the paragraphs are what everybody lives by
today, what I also wanted to be seen is that as one goes about life, one
needs to look at reality once in a while and see everything and everyone
for what they really are through the façade of our laws. "
In here you are also making other assumptions; that we need you to
tell us to look around and see things, that you your way of expressing this
oppinion could get that point across, and that you speak for others. This
could be a function of bad grammer, but I think rather that it is a
function of a need for attention. I say that because in the past most of
the people that post free-form then refuse to acknowledge that they have
posted free-form are teenagers going thru the worse of the self-definition
phase. I a make no excuses for the US schools that didnt and dont teach the
forms of poetry so that every 10 year old can tell the difference between
prose and poetry,nor thier students that refuse to learn these things on
thier own.
It is immature to attempt to gain postion in a group
thru attacking the leaders,the norms, or their toys even tho that is what
they taught us at school. Even tho that is what we see on TV and in the
movies. It is still immature and unwelcome.
In future if you
would like reposonses to your posts, please log in. it is more fun to play
with the group that hope to antagonize, and annon posts run the risk of
just being deleted all together.
[ This
message was edited by: callei on 2002-04-10 14:34 ]
[ This message was edited by: callei on 2002-04-10 14:41 ] ____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and
vampires
/>
away.
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Anonymous
Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/4/2002 at 10:04 AM |
Here is a "revised" "single" paragraph of what I meant to state, albeit a
bit off the mark and in the dark...I wanted it to show that almost all of the paragraphs are what
everybody lives by today, what I also wanted to be seen is that as one goes
about life, one needs to look at reality once in a while and see everything
and everyone for what they really are through the façade of our laws.
Callei, what was that about difference, cos I don´t
recall stating what I meant by it, and in this case I used it in the
simplistic form of: apart from standards, or not conforming to society. I
never claimed I wanted to be understood, and as for brain drippings, that
came off pretty well for something that I had thought up about four-five
years ago, cos´ it´s still applicable to today.
Bettie, I´m aware of what the subject started as and have simply
erred in the way I contributed to partake in the thread. Oh, and I don´t
always wear black, just sunglasses to hide my eyes which is the easiest way
to be anonymous; it still wasn´t poetry, no matter how you read it; and
as for being a world reknowned sage, bag that crap and let me be, I just
want to go somewhere where there are no people around to critisize, not
´cos I can´t take it but because critism usually comes in the form of
ignorance.
Devin, I can´t understand your position,
but I can respect it enough to apologize to you for the way I presented my
paragraph(s), sometimes making an impact visually happens to go and bite
one in the ass for being taken the wrong way, so my first paragraph in this
post is what I meant to say that I guess wasn´t said, or taken the right
way...
-Zalosisae ____________________
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DarkTigress
Member  Posts: 104 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/4/2002 at 05:55 AM |
| I leave it up to others whom know me to rate that... I believe I´m not as
honest to myself as I should if I should rate anything like that. I just
try to be myself at all time. I have never been considered directly
´immoral´ in the sence of ´b´ though... not what I know of... even though
many of my opinions am very much different ____________________
~The World Can Continue It's Excistence Without Mankind... But What Happens
To The Mankind When The Earth Is Gone?~
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Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/4/2002 at 05:30 AM |
I disagree... I think Dali was just doing it for the
recognition... not for any real art purpose... I mean, sure, the lobster
bit kinda fits (lobsters have about the same sort of grip as a phone...),
but a lot of it is just weird... Like his speech ("Dalian"), and his
general eccentricities present all over. I think he was just looking to be
the center of attention.
He is talented, I´ll give
you that... ____________________
Piggy's got the Conch!
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/4/2002 at 08:53 PM |
Oh I don´t know I sort of like the way c squishes things 
Devin, props for keeping the
law in hand...ooo spare my poor poor eyes...
and z,
don´t worry...there´s always www.deadjournal.com
you´ll feel at
home there...with countess jesseeeeee...our patron darling hypocrite.
Just a few helpful hints:
Nobody around here
proclaims to be special.
Nobody around here likes AlTeRnAtInG
text.
Okay, we HATE IT.
Poetry free means poetry
free...especially the bad kind.
Wearing black doesn´t make you
special.
Having thumbs doesn´t make you smart.
Usually
when people write "abstractly" and are aware or proud of it or PROMOTE that
they write or think "abstractly", that means they are TRYING to do it
(faking it), trying to see things that way (faking it), and come off as
insufferable.
DALI was abstract...he thought he was perfectly
sane. He put a lobster on a telephone as a reciever and put it on display
as art. HE is abstract. "Poetry" as a way of discussion is irritating,
not "abstract".
Fee free to tell us all that we´ll be
sorry when you´re a world renowned sage...we´ll live.
____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
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Devin
Administrator Posts: 317 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Online
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posted on 9/4/2002 at 04:40 PM |
This is why I delegate most of my bug squishing authority to scorpios like
callei. Now if only there were such thing as goth virgo´s, maybe I could
get someone to wipe the drivel off of my web pages for me. But until then I
reserve the right to censor anything that I´ve already said many times is
unacceptable.
Callei is right on all counts as usual. ____________________
So Sayeth Me
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callei
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/4/2002 at 01:27 PM |
you are making some very simle errors:
Different means
opposite
manners are stupid and bad
Judging is
"wrong"
This is your playground
That you have the
only ball in town
A teenage agnst issue is actualy interesting to
most people
And
that we should not know you by your
actions, but rather by some thought you had at some point.
In
fact, judging is good (otherwise we would have all died of food poisoning
long ago), different just means different, this is not your playground and
we dont need your ball, teen agnst bores nearly everyone that has outgrown
that phase of falsely elongated childhood, and we will know you by what you
contribute HERE, not somewhere else to something else.
We dont
have to "understand" you, that is not our job. your job, as an author is to
write to and for your audience, to amuse entertain and perhaps to educate,
if they ask to be educated.
and its IS bad manners to assult
others eyes with your brain drippings.
so there neah ____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and
vampires
/>
away.
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