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Author: Subject: The Problems With Democracy

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  posted on 7/5/2003 at 07:45 AM
This discussion will get nowhere if it is going to be personal, so I will take the mea culpa and retract my specific challenge.
That said, I would like someone (not just you, Mono, this is a sort of group thing) to specifically and concisely address a few points.

What unfair advantage does a Mexican immigrant with no money have? If he retires wealthy due to hard work and providing safe affordable housing in poor neighbourhoods, who has he exploited?

I assert that options packages for executives are fair, more fair than salaries for them. They have the effect of pay-for-performance and tie the executive's benefit to the company directly to his compensation. How is rewarding work with money unfair? Was I evil two years ago when I had $300K+ of options tied to my company's performance and my own personal performance? I found that to be encouraging and motivating, since my work would directly have a payoff.

Am I evil or exploiting now, because I do not do the job my father does and I do not live where I grew up? I am struggling to understand your idea of fair, because it seems like you suggest equal reward for inequal effort and skill.

Where is a society to get its resources if not from contributions from its members? A company pays a worker fairly for his job, since if it were not fair he would work elsewhere. I have personally been doing this very thing for years, and once received a $10K raise just because management thought my work was too valuable for my pay. Was I evil to accept it? If we reward all people for no contribution, we will quickly run out of resources. Companies and their workers, including executives, contribute to society by providing a product that people want or they wouldn't buy it. Who is forced to buy Starbuck's coffee when they could buy from the store next to it? I will mention at this point that there is an anti-Starbucks coalition to drive down costs for the single shop coffee vendor, in other words, they have found a more efficient way due to survival pressure.

Society behaves like a jungle, and companies behave like individuals. The option is to contribute and do it well enough to match or exceed that of others, or go down. K-Mart was not as good at what they do as Wal-Mart is, and they have suffered. The result is better value for the consumer, your exploited underclass, since they determine who succeeds and who fails by virtue of their consumption.

I would like to see a definition here of what wealth is to whomever asserts that wealth is unfair. I would also like to see a definition of unfair, since I feel that using resources at your disposal and taking opportunity is fair. I would also like to see a definition of exploitation, since nobody forces anybody to get a certain job or buy certain things like SUVs that make them need a higher-paying job. It is all voluntary, and there are those that choose to reject the system but they must accept that they cannot benefit from the system at that point. Theodore Kaczynski was one such person, and he became totally self-sufficient. Was he evil or exploiting for taking this chance? He didn't expect a nice town house and three meals a day for nothing, and took his own action.

Warren Buffett provides services that people want and provides more value to society than he has money, and he has billions. Nobody is forced to use Geico insurance, Kirby vacuum cleaners, or any of the other subsidiary products that his company provides. ( I could have sworn that he owned Dairy Queen as well, but I cannot find a reference at this time.) Warren has all the money he deserves, and no more. I could go on, with the likes of Michael Bloomberg, Larry Ellison, the Waltons (of the Wal-Mart dynasty) and William Rosenberg of Dunkin Donuts fame. Jesus died for our Dunkin Donuts, let us not forget. Please show me how someone has contributed billions to the economy and to people's lives and has not been rewarded, and how someone was made a billionaire by simply complaining about not being one.

I am interested in discussing this to its conclusion or, more likely, stalemate, but this cannot devolve into personal attacks or taking personal offence if we expect to have anything more than the typical forum shouting match.

I fail to see how it is cheaper to be rich, as you assert. A $300 car that needs $500 work to pass emissions is still worlds cheaper than a new $30K car that is exempt from emissions. My big ugly van cost me $1200 (and I negotiated the price *up*, so you can't accuse me of exploiting the seller) and has had nearly $4K worth of work (including $500 just to pass CO emissions, which makes it cleaner than most cars in OH) in the six years I have owned it. That works out to about $70 a month, and my other vehicle costs me $500 per month before maintenance and repairs. How is this cheaper? Please prove this to me, because I will then go out and get something even cheaper, a new Mercedes 600SL.

Should my children go to the same school as the very rich kids? Yes, they should, if I can get that for them. They deserve it but I don't expect it to be handed to me.

Finally, what would be a better system than the one we have now? It must provide for the poor as this one does to a degree, have in place something to overcome inherent human nature that would make people not contribute if they didn't feel it were worth their efforts, and it must provide for true direct democracy while somehow overcoming the desire of most people to be ignorant and not participate in their government. I am being completely serious here, since I honestly do not see any other way besides directly rewarding contributions and effort. If we could design a superior social and economic system, it could be put in place. Have you forgotten who was senior class President at our high school, and how this individual was not of the "advantaged" cliques who held all the influence?

 

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  posted on 7/5/2003 at 10:00 AM
We are through. We will remain in fundamental disagreement and love is now lost.
 

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  posted on 7/5/2003 at 10:41 AM
If it makes you feel better, so be it. However, my points still have not been addressed. Can anyone add to this or refute my points, or point out a flaw in my logic or facts? This is a forum, not merely a monologue, and I invite participation and discussion. Squid, Remy, Callei, Shade, anyone? I came here for rational debate and exploration of this issue, if that is possible without it decaying into an emotional shmengfest.
 

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  posted on 7/5/2003 at 10:44 AM
Mono, this I believe, is the first time I have ever disagreed with you on anything. Most of the time you make a lot of sense. I just can't agree with you on this one. And I can't believe you would break a friendship over one disagreement. Please reconsider the love being lost part. None has been lost on this side.

 

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  posted on 7/5/2003 at 01:38 PM
I have actually attempted to bow out of this to keep it from becoming an "emotional shmengfest". While I am the first to admit that I am a hothead, let us not pretend that this is a detached and impersonal difference of opinion. You have taken my comments as an attack on your family while at the same time all but calling me a social parasite. Actually, Rogue, I did address your comments. I do recall who was the class president of your high school... and I also recall how that president was subsequently undermined and excluded by the more advantaged kids who met and made all the decisions behind his back because they resented the niceties of the democratic process when it did not cement their own advantages. I can not debate with you if you feel that a poor person and an advantaged person expend an equal amount of effort and resources to generate the same amount of capital to purchase their necessities... and cars, computers, telephones, groceries et cetera are not simply "choices" if you wish to participate in this society. The man who has the capital and connections to afford a nicer suit and haircut at his job interview will be preferred over the man next to him who can only cobble together business apparel that he finds at a thrift store.

Meranda, I am also at a fundamental loggerhead with you. My hatred of the active parasites at the top does not match your contempt for the passive parasites at the bottom. As much as I vehemently despise the leisure class, I would not deny them a basic substistence nor strip them of the nobility of humanity. I do not contemptuously view those who suffer as having brought everything upon themselves and are therefore ignoble, disposable or less than human. The philosophy you are espousing measures a person's worth by the size of their bank account, and since you are familiar with my financial situation, it is impossible for me not to conclude that you view me as inherently worthless and ignoble.

If those at the top were ever actually the most able, most intelligent, most skilled, most driven and most superior specimens of humanity then there might be something to your thesis. This is not now nor has it ever been the case. I will never be convinced that the executives of Halliburton or Microsoft or Enron are superior in any way to anyone. They are simply evil, manipulative, and underhanded. Perhaps they have better "attitudes" than everyone else... access to wealth and medication can certainly improve the worst of attitudes or mental illnesses.

Most importantly, even if I were able to be blithe about being viewed as inferior because I am not rich, the mercenary "law of the jungle" you are espousing causes me to view our relationship in an entirely new light. You do not benefit monetarily from your relationship with me, nor I you, and I am left to presume that this friendship is therefore incompatible with your worldview (or at best, competitive... which I am in no way amenable to. I do not believe that "every man for himself" is a sound basis for meaningful exchange). No, Rogue, it does not make me "feel better", but I am accustomed to dealing with the world as I find it and not how I imagine it should be.

This is my last word in this forum.

~M.

 

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  posted on 7/5/2003 at 05:19 PM
*goes out for a cigarette during the intermission*

 

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  posted on 7/5/2003 at 07:08 PM
>Meranda, I am also at a fundamental loggerhead with you. My hatred of the active parasites at the top does not match your contempt for the passive parasites at the bottom. As much as I vehemently despise the leisure class, I would not deny them a basic substistence nor strip them of the nobility of humanity. I do not contemptuously view those who suffer as having brought everything upon themselves and are therefore ignoble, disposable or less than human. The philosophy you are espousing measures a person's worth by the size of their bank account, and since you are familiar with my financial situation, it is impossible for me not to conclude that you view me as inherently worthless and ignoble.


Mono, I think you ought to really think about what I said. I did not say that people who refuse to do anything to help themselves are ignoble, disposable or less than human. I also said nothing about the person's worth. I have met MANY worthy people I have been proud to call friend who had nothing. For many years, I had nothing, yet I hope someone out there saw me as a worthy person in my own right, despite my financial situation. I still believe that people can, and do rise and fall financially based on skill, ability and ambition, or any combination of the three. It does not mean that the people who rise to the top are all bad or that the people who sink to the bottom are all good. Or vice versa. I'm saying that morality has nothing to do with it. People at the very bottom have access to government and social programs to help them receive their necessities. People who want more than the basic necessities simply have to put personal effort into seeing that they acquire those things. It would not be fair if it were any other way. If you think I see you as worthless, you are reading a very different story than that which I was trying to get across. You are taking it very personally. It's a debate, and nothing to take personally. If Rogue were to lose his job, and we had to go on welfare, I would hate it, and I would try every way in my power to get off of it, but I would not see myself or the people around me as inhuman. When I was a child and on welfare, I had no choice. That is what I was born into. My mother got a job from a program with the mental hospital at the bulk mail center. A nice, government job was just handed to her, because she was certifiably crazy. She turned out to be too crazy to hold that job, and began receiving social security. Recently, she won a civil suit against the postal service because they fired her and she was crazy, and therefore was supposed to be exempt from firing, no matter how crazy she behaved, or how many days she missed due to being crazy. She now owns (as in owns property) a trailer that she bought with money from social security and winning that suit. Now, everything she has was just handed to her, she did nothing to gain this advantage. The doctors made sure she was taken care of. Is this how everyone ought to expect their lives to go? Is this what's fair? She can't possibly be an evil person because she was too insane to take advantage of anything. Me, on the other hand, my ( extremely inheritable, my mother insists) insanity hasn't fully kicked in, I can't have my necessities just handed to me, I have to use the unfair advantage I took of Rogue when he proposed to me and promised to take care of me. I ought to have turned him down and slashed my wrists so I could go into the mental hospital and have the system that is in place for the mentally handicapped take good care of me. After all, anything else would have been evil. But at least I would have the knowledge that I was absolutely passive about my life and did nothing to ruin anyone else's.

And there I go again. You see, I'm very touchy about this, not because, as you state, I'm contemptuous of the passive parasites and those who suffer. I've been there, and I know that those who are there, are there of their own free will. There are people, social groups, religious and governmental programs lined up to do anything to make sure the poor have the chance to climb out of that pit of despair. They can't give them a hand up unless the poor are willing to help by actively trying to get out instead of hanging there like so much dead weight. That is not meant to be contemptuous, it is a fact that I have seen in action over and over again.

What you have done here is disregard the point I was actually trying to make in order to slander me by saying I meant things that I obviously did not mean. You know damn well that I think highly of you, that I hold few people in contempt, and that based almost entirely on whether or not someone is actively mean, hateful and deliberately hurtful toward someone else. The way I feel about people has nothing to do with what's in their bank account or even how hard they're trying to improve. I like nice people. I do not like mean people. It's that simple. Please do not put words I have not spoken into my mouth ever again. If you hate me so much because I disagreed with you, and you feel I betrayed you or let you down in some way, there's nothing I can do about that. I had no idea that our friendship was so shallow that it could be destroyed by me stating an opinion that disagrees with yours. I was under the unreasonable assumption that it was much stronger than that. I will not ask for your forgiveness, for I still believe that I have done nothing wrong, and it would be like beating my head into a brick wall. I will say I am deeply sorry to have lost your friendship, which meant the world to me.

Meranda

 

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  posted on 8/5/2003 at 06:44 AM
Mono, you are angry and confused and are not understanding what I am saying. This is not about you, this is about the system and the options available to all. I took no personal offence and retracted my challenge, but still held the example of the Mexican immigrant as an instance of someone with no unfair advantage who exploited no-one and improved his station, probably because he was too belligerent to accept what people told him.

To everyone else, I say the following:

I consider resources to be time, skill/intelligence/knowledge, effort, and assets/money.

You must spend resources to get resources. I spend time and considerable skill at my job, and I get money in return. I would probably take a job that gave less money but cost less time because that would also be a fair trade. If I spend my money resource and some skill and a small amount of time in investing, I can also make money. With enough skill at my job I can spend less time there while still getting the same money. There is a pattern here, that you trade resources in life and you decide what is worthwhile to trade.


Typically, the poor man spends only time at his work, and enough effort to keep from getting fired. He is rewarded accordingly, and this actually affords a nice middle-class lifestyle if spending is not out of control. The executive spends great amounts of skill and effort, and often more time than a factory worker, at his job and is rewarded accordingly. He is not expending the same amount of resources per hour as the blue-collar man, he is expending more and is working more effectively. The investor, such as Warren Buffett, spends time and extreme skill and money to earn more money. The individual decides what resources he can or will spend in exchange for what other resources, and the trade is done. Actors (gender-neutral term) spend skill and a small bit of time in exchange for money, and in any situation you can identify what resources are being traded for what other resources.




To figure out why one man is paid more than another, you must examine what he is contributing/spending and what he is taking from the situation. Hard work is less effective than smart work, and hard smart work is even more effective. Hard smart work plus time pays off in more resources/money than the last two, etc.

You must contribute resources to a society in order to earn the benefits of that society. This should be easy to understand, because otherwise it would turn into a stone soup potluck. There is usually a method in society for allocation of 'surplus' resources to provide for those genuinely unable to contribute, the old or sick or very young. In the case of social security and unemployment insurance, it is a simple banking system in most cases, where you can only take out what you put in. Personally, I would like to be able to cash-out my unemployment insurance account because it would buy a nice car, but in this instance the government is forcing me to do the responsible thing.

In any situation, you can choose to accept the options that are given to you and choose between them, or to make your own options. If someone says to you "you are poor, you must work in a factory or starve", you can do those things or you can find a hidden option. Further, if someone tells you that your financial worth determines the worth of you personally, you can accept this or reject it for the mind poison that it is. It frustrates me to see people who want more out of life, but believe what they were told about being worthless or "not meant for good things" or similar garbage. Do not accept anything that says you are worthless or incapable or not good enough, find the truth and the hidden options.

There are always hidden options.

The one thing that never works is choosing to bemoan your options without trying one of them or looking for new ones.

I agree that a system should be in place that provides for those who are unable to provide for themselves, but for the most part this already exists. I do not think that a society can afford to spend great amounts of resources in providing food, shelter, clothing, etc to anyone who wants it, because human nature is such that many people would become too comfortable with this and not contribute back to the society. Welfare reforms are based on this principle, to end the abuses of the system that were prevalent in the 1970s. (in all fairness, I would mention that the last figures I saw stated that $.04 of every tax dollar goes to welfare programs while $.72 goes to defence...but this is something that the people need to be motivated to change if they wish it to be different.)

Briefly, I consider society and economics to be like a piggy bank that can convert coins of one denomination to another, like you put in two quarters and you can take out a half-dollar. In my model though, the coins are resources. I put in 5 units of work, 10 units of skill, 5 units of effort, and I can take out 20 units of money at the end of the day. I do not expect to get more than I put in, and I feel that the system is flawed but fair enough in that it has been my experience that it works this way.

 

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  posted on 8/5/2003 at 06:57 AM
That story about the Girl and her movement up the ladder.. Where was the father of the child? is every person guarantied to have such a school nearby? how was she able to do that with a child? who looked after the child while she worked/studied? Is every school/work so near everyone? I remember watching "Bowling for Columbine" where a black mother in order to get food stamps and health care for her children, was forced to work for the states "wellfare to work" programme, she had to travel 60 miles?(I think) 1 and a half hour each way to work. She worked as a waitress in a club for rich people, leaving home early and coming home late at night. She worked at Dick Clarke's. I just resaw it to get it straight and she also had two jobs.. 70 hours a week and still not enough money to pay her rent, she was getting evicted along with her two children.
how could she move up the ladder?

And what about the middle class people that lose their jobs when the firm they work at finds out that it will be cheaper to move to Mexico ?
Sorry about the babbling.. just wondering,

But this one: "If everyone in this country were given all of their basic necessities, food, shelter, clothing, etc. NOBODY would ever do anything, and there would be no food, shelter or clothing to hand out. You'd have to put a gun to people's heads to get them to do anything. People seek pleasure and avoid pain by nature."

Do you call basic necessities for luxury? some food? a place to take shelter so they won't freeze in the winter? The thing with most humans is that they always want more.. they see their neighbour have a fancy new tv and they want the same or something better, improve their lot in life. Not many people wants to stay at the bottom of the heap and live of the state. I believe most people would be disgusted at the thought. Many people here are having difficulties going and getting support from the state when they are unemployed.

Sorry about the bad language but English is not my main language.... Plus I have no idea how stuff is done in America, evey man for himself? Do I make any sence?

 

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  posted on 8/5/2003 at 07:22 AM
No one makes sense when it comes to politics my friend...not even the Gods.

 

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  posted on 8/5/2003 at 11:19 PM
Tvileren, The story was just a story. It was meant to illustrate a point that I was trying to make. I know you saw a story that was sensationalized to garner pity for the poor and to vilify the rich. Once again, I am stating clearly that I in no way feel contempt for the poor or judge people by the size of their bank account. If you are wondering how people get their basic needs under unusual circumstances, there are programs in place for these people.

I know this system inside and out; I lived through it. I was fed from a food bank, I got clothes from a donation box at a church. My mother was on welfare and got subsidized housing. I know the system works. I also saw how people were working the system and making no effort to get out of it and stand on their own two feet. I think that everyone does get their basic necessities, there are programs in place to make sure that the sick and elderly and children do not starve or go unclothed or unsheltered. I was fed just fine as a child and we were homeless at one point. I was 15, and spent ONE NIGHT at a homeless shelter and ended up sleeping on someone's floor while I went to high school and worked a full-time job. I bought a car with money that I single handedly earned so my mother could go to a job that the state had given her. No one can tell me there is not a system in place for those who don't have anything. What i am saying and the point I am trying to make to people who think that it's not fucking fair for the haves to have while the have-nots go without is that if you don't get off your ass and at least try to make your life better all you will have your whole life is shit. If I stood placidly by and let life take care of me, I would be right now, in a trailer or low income housing project, probably on drugs to dull the pain of having nothing. THAT'S one of the things that happens to people who have no idea how to get out of it. I had a friend once, whose mother was one of the worst offenders of the whole milking the system racket. This woman would sell the food stamps for drugs and let the children go hungry. My friend got pregnant at the age of 14. She quit school, got a G.E.D. and got married to an abusive redneck a year later. Popped out two more kids and gave one to her mother to raise because the mother was about to be taken off welfare and with the addition of the baby was saved for another 5 years. My friend got divorced from the abusive dickhead, and was right back in the welfare system that she'd grown up in. She had subsidized housing, food stamps, the whole thing. She wanted more. She started dancing in a tit-bar to supplement her income, and went to an adult-education program at a local high school to become a medical assistant. She actually didn't take the medical assistant job because she discovered that dancing was more lucrative. Last I heard, she was still on welfare, milking the system and dancing to supplement it. I have no idea where she is now. These things happen. I have dozens of other stories of families that have had hard times and had to use the system to survive, or used the system to their advantage so they would not have to work for a living. I could go on for hours about it. I know that people do not have to stay on welfare if they're born into it. I also know that it's very hard to get off welfare sometimes. I know that some people think it's not fair that some children are born into homes where their parents don't have to worry about where the next meal is coming from while there are children born into homes where their parents either do worry about that next meal or don't give a flying fuck about that next meal. You can't control what kind of situation you are born into. You can control how your life will be when you grow up. If anyone has the right to bitch and complain that the system is not fair, it's me. Goddamit, I wish I had been born into a family where I was loved and taken care of, and not abused or left to fend for myself. I wish my mother had not been too crazy to be an actual mother to me and my sister. Fuck, I wish I'd had the goddamn opportunity to make a decent life for myself and my children. I know! I'll hate the people who were born into middle class homes and that will make me feel better. After all, they think they're so great for having stuff, while I have nothing. They're mean. I wish they were on the same level as I am. That would be fair.

Forgive me for not having a lot of faith in comunism. I do not believe that if everyone were given the same amount of goods that they would voluntarily do what is required to make it work. People just aren't that altruistic and good hearted. When people go through a period of enlightenment and have a regard for their fellow people, it might work. Until then, the ones who put forth the most effort will reap the most rewards. If I want to have a million dollar house, and I don't put the effort that is required into attaining that kind of living, I have no right to bitch that I don't have a million dollar house. I also do not have the right to degrade the person who has put the effort into attaining a million dollar house.

I am saying that it is not fair to expect someone to take care of you when you are capable of taking care of yourself. If you can't afford luxuries, then find a way to fix things so you can get the luxuries you want. If you can't get necessities, go find the programs that will help you get necessities until you can get back on your feet. Do not keep taking from the system when you can do for yourself. Have some fucking pride and dignity. These things are not evil. (I know, pride's one of the 7 deadly sins. That's a doctrine that is meant to keep the masses down and degraded.)

Tvileren, If people are in the system, they're being taken care of as much as the system can take care of them. If they're not in the system, there are a lot of homeless shelters for them to go to temporarily. Nobody in this country has to starve to death anymore. We do tend to take care of people here. Some people are just more bitter than others about their lot in life. The woman you saw on the movie, I don't know her personal circumstances, but I would bet that she and her children did not die of starvation or cold. I will concede that their lives were not very comfortable, but what do you want? Them and everybody else to be set up in rent free housing with free groceries and free vouchers to the mall department stores? Would that be fair to everyone?

What if, in fantasyland, everyone always had the same thing? Everyone is sent to the same government-regulated school, and upon graduation is assigned to their own identical little house. They are told they must report immediately to the same government-regulated college education, and are randomly put into different career paths, so everything's fair. Intelligence and ability have nothing to do with what career they will end up with. Everyone is given the same uniform to wear to school, and when they graduate are given the appropriate uniform for their career path. Everyone, regardless of career, is given the same grocery package and are assigned the same necessary items such as telephones and computers and cars. All items look and function alike. Everyone lives the same identical life forever and ever. Is this what's fair? Is everyone happy with this? It's too fucking bad we don't life in fairyland, isn't it?

 

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  posted on 9/5/2003 at 03:02 AM
First off, I want to say that I am not a communist or have any communist tendencies, only that peoples most basic needs should be taken care of, so they not starve to death,freeze to death, yada yada yada, not so they should have a comfortable life. I don't believe that the poor is any "better" than the rich, they are both the same exept that the rich have money.

"What i am saying and the point I am trying to make to people who think that it's not fucking fair for the haves to have while the have-nots go without is that if you don't get off your ass and at least try to make your life better all you will have your whole life is shit"

This I agree with.

about the "contempt" of yours regarding the poor, I think that misunderstanding may come of the fact that you said that it was their own fault that they were poor. Sounds a little like you mean that they deserve to suffer..

ps: your fantasy land sounds more like horror land...

 

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  posted on 9/5/2003 at 03:35 AM
Tvileren, you got the exact point I was trying to make. I am so glad that someone finally understands what I was saying.

As far as the contempt misunderstanding, it's an easy mistake to make if some words are missed. What I actually said is, and I quote: "If people do not take action on their behalf, and they stay poor and miserable, IT IS THEIR OWN GODDAMN FAULT."


The key phrase there is: "If people do not take action on their behalf" IF people are doing the best they can do, and still have it rough, then life's throwing them one hell of a hard time, and usually there's a program in place to help them if they're a parent with small children, sick or disabled, or elderly. If someone has it rough and is an able-bodied person capable of doing for themselves, they are expected to use whatever skill or ability they have and put forth the effort it takes to help themselves. Even then, if they end up in extremely desperate circumstances, there are soup kitchens and shelters that will give people a bed for the night.

The fantasyland was supposed to make a point as well. I don't think the majority of people would be very happy if despite their skill and abilities, they all had to be in the exact same situation. I'm glad that I live in a world where someone born poor can move out of that situation. Even if some people think it's evil to do so.

 

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