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Author: Subject: Terrorizing

Fanatic





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  posted on 9/12/2002 at 08:12 AM
I would prefer to go on living a nice, happy, insane life; hey at least I like it. I think that it starts to cross the line of insanity when you start wanting to blow everyone else up who is trying to do the same thing. I’m sure that arguments could be made for the destruction of countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, but when it comes right down to it, I really don’t think that there is as much as a global threat as our precious leader is trumping up.

Not to mention that when it comes right down to it, a war a terrorism, which Bush insists we are going to win, is entirely un-winnable, because you can never remove terror from people’s lives. Not without, of course, monitoring them, controlling them, and ruling them with an iron fist, which creates a kind of terror of its on, but only to those of us who are left with a shred of individualism. I’d rather not go down with out a fight, but alas, the majority is going down already, and they don’t seem to be one wit concerned with what they are doing.

Are there any people left who realize that patriotism is a dirty word for conformity, and that terrorism is the most wonderful enemy our country could ever have, because it can never be defeated? Is there anyone else who is even as remotely disturbed as I am by this?

 

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  posted on 9/12/2002 at 10:41 AM
You have a few points...but I can nail you on a few more things. Patriotism isn't a word for conformity, it's a word for unity...two similiar but essentially different things. The government isn't asking everybody to be exactly the same, to bend to the laws and oppressive stuff...(consequently, we got it REAL nice here in America)...they're just asking that we stand together...all the fucked up tribes we are that make up America. Two, terrorism can be eliminated, by killing every last one of the bastards. I'm not talking Genocide, and I'm not saying "Kill all the Arabs 'cause they're Bin Laddies. But our government is powerful and advanced enough to target and eliminate specific threats. You can combat terror, and there is no such thing as an un-defeatable enemy, that kind of outlook just breeds complacency...You can defeat Terror, and not by Tyranny, or any of that 1984 crap...you can defeat it by standing tall, standing fierce and tearing the living shit out of anything that hurts you and yours. Terrorists are the essential cowards, the natural excretement of an archaic, crowded and angry culture.
And for those who might think the threat "Isn't that bad", "Smaller than we're told" or "Not really our problem." I say with all due vehemence...fuck you...
Tell that to someone in New York, someone who spent sleepless days of his life digging through the rubble, tell it to 'em...and hope you wake up in a hospital and not in the afterlife.
It is real...It IS big, and it doesn't matter if the threat is Global...it matters to America. I know it's real because I've seen it, so have a lot of others. I could argue for the destruction of those countries...but to tell you the truth, there are innocents there that don't deserve to die, and if we do kill them to get our men...we're sinking down to their level. It's a dirty cowardly trick...but we can get around it.
It's sad that we needed something like this to pull our country together, if only briefly...but just because of that, we shouldn't discount or let it pass by.
I apologize for prolly being an asshole in my delivery of this...but I mean what I say, and I say what I feel.
People who haven't seen, people who lead comfortable, fluffy lives, or maybe even hard but blind lives can discount, disbelieve and pretend it's "Not as bad"...but to people who are in the haze, it's the god damned end-all-be-all.
*cough-cough*

 

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  posted on 9/12/2002 at 08:06 PM
"The government isn't asking everybody to be exactly the same, to bend to the laws and oppressive stuff...(consequently, we got it REAL nice here in America)...they're just asking that we stand together...all the fucked up tribes we are that make up America."

I don't think that is true. The government is asking us to lay down our civil liberties so they can better protect us. At this moment our conversation is being monitored. I'll probably be labeled a potential threat for being a dissenter. You can never tell. The recent passing of the Homeland Security initiative takes the states right back to the age of McCarthyism, and it has the potential to get worse. I don’t think that we are being brought together, I think that the nation is being tamed.

“Two, terrorism can be eliminated, by killing every last one of the bastards.”

As long as there are people dying anywhere, as long as there are people who are crazy enough to believe that they are more right than anyone else, as long as there are people who are willing to explode themselves for a cause, there will be terror. As long as Americans beat their chests about how often they have been wronged without willing to believe or except that they have wronged others, there will be terrorist. You cannot kill them all, because there will always be someone out there.

“People who haven't seen, people who lead comfortable, fluffy lives, or maybe even hard but blind lives can discount, disbelieve and pretend it's "Not as bad"...but to people who are in the haze, it's the god damned end-all-be-all.”

People who are in the haze of what?

 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 12:21 AM
"At this moment our conversation is being monitored. I'll probably be labeled a potential threat for being a dissenter..."
I'll grant you that, this probably is being monitered. By people who don't have anything better to do. I have news for you. Your piddling ass little comments aren't enough to interest any type of government paper pusher. YOu just aren't important enough.
Second, the fact that you are perfectly free to make these comments is granted to you courtesy of Uncle Sam and all the people who are willing to put on a uniform, leave their families, and go over seas to fight for it.
Get your head out of whatever orifice you happen to be storing it in and take a good look around. It isn't a perfect country, but if you really don't like it, then leave.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 03:12 AM
Hey...I'd dignify you with more of a response, but I really only speak to people who have the balls to say their name...Cowardice is cowardice, however you look at it. You're probably aware how fucked up it sounds, and are either too ashamed to say your name, or just a run of the mill yellow-ass.

 

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Coward




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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 04:00 AM
Dear Mister Anonymous,

I want you to do me a favor. Go out and join one of the Armed Forces. I don't care which one, just pick one. Then I want you to go out and visit some of the other nations in this large world of ours. I tell you from experience that we have the best fucking country out there. I have seen people willing to demean themselves for the mearest scap of food or money. They did it because if they didn't their family would starve. I want you to look at these people and tell them about how your civil liberties are being encroached. I want to see your face as you realized that your poor, pitiful life isn't near as fucked up as theirs.
After that, keep looking around. Maybe you'll find countries where the people have it much better. Never in need of food, a healthy economy and low unemployment. Mark my words, though, they are missing something else. Liberty. Singapore is a wonderful place. Clean, well-off, influental, and secure. There is a saying, "Singapore is a FINE city." It's a play on words. Singapore is wonderful, but just about anything will get you fined or caned. Great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
Keep looking and looking. If, one day, you ever find a country that you like better than the US, then get out of the military and move there, because I DONT WANT YOUR CHICKEN SHIT ASS IN MY MILITARY OR MY COUNTRY!!!

P.S. By serving in the military and fighting for YOUR freedom and right to bitch, I have given up on even the most basic of my civil liberties.
You're welcome.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 05:18 AM
I can't speak for anonymous, but me, well, I am living in a police state nation that is not the US. However, being an American citizen, last time I checked, I am worried about the current state of our nation and the push that it is making towards unnecessary war and violence.

I'm not question anyone's right to be a patriot, I'm saying that that "you are either with us or against us" statements that have been made, are flawed. I'm not against America, I'm against reactionary behavior, which is currently rampant.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 07:17 AM
BAH!
 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 07:27 AM
Nice soapbox, H_R, but you can drop the martyr complex. You're getting paid, it isn't charity work. If being cannon fodder makes you feel good about yourself, then more power to you... but it doesn't make your opinion any more profound. I've heard plenty of the "America: Love it or leave it" from you military guys and that is to be expected. You are not on Uncle Sam's payroll to do your own thinking. I belong to the "America: Love it and fix it" camp which pretty much disqualifies me from blindly taking orders from guys with short haircuts and snappy uniforms.

~Monolycus.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 10:13 AM
Guy No.1 : "Wow, its great that Bush has started a war on Terrorism."
Guy No.2 : "Yeah, it'll be just like the 'War on Drugs'. There won't be anymore terrorism!"
Guy No.1 : "Yep, that war on drugs was really successful!"

There's a webcomic out there with the above general joke. I forgot where it was at, so I couldn't post a link. But basically, I agree with it. There's no way that you can beat the "bad guys" into submission, because other bad guys are gonna come later.
And second of all, I don't think Bush is going to let Saddam get off easy, even if Saddam plays by the rules. Bush is going to find some tiny reason to drop bombs...

And in response to Hot_Rod, there's the old army vet bumper sticker...
"I LOVE my country. Its the GOVERNMENT I'm afraid of."

We all love America. But damned if we're going to approve of what Bush is doing. He's sticking his head into what shouldn't be his business. I know, you're going to say that THEY were the ones who bombed and terrorized us. But you know, it didn't start there. The US has been a force in the Middle East for a long time, and a stick in the side of several countries for longer. Israel has been around since WWII. US-Arab emnimity goes back that far. Europe controlled the region prior to that. Western-Arab emnimity probably goes back for 500 years. Then Europe ran the Crusade deal (don't ask me who started it) European-Arab emnimity goes back 1200 years! And before that, Rome was conquering left and right, including Arabia. That could go back 3000 years! Then Alexander the Great... Forgot how long ago he was...

But the point is this: By launching war on "Terrorism" (bullshit, we know its just Arab oil), we are only stretching out a conflict that has been ongoing for millenia. War clearly is not the answer.
War only proves -their- point that the western world is out to control everybody.


 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 10:21 AM
Okay, I think I have to agree with lots of different people here (that sounds nicer than saying disagree...) I think that terror and terrorism cannot be eradicated. As Anonymous-Coward said, as long as there are people who think they know better or live better than others who aren't as powerful as them then they *will* inflict their views or worse on those people. Kill one lot and another group get pissy and take their place.

As for what Hot-Rod is saying then, yeah, I reckon that bitching about how sucky your life is when there are people in the world that are *so* much worse off isn't clever. If you think your life sucks then you've hardly lived because if you had then you'd have seen how much lower you can go and still exist.

That having been said, I don't mean that people shouldn't complain about the bad stuff, it's just taking it too far, seeming wholely occupied with how bad *your* life is ain't fun. Not for you or the people listening to you. This site is built to bring up shmeng, all the shitty stuff that's happened to you - air it here. Just keep watching the wide screen, cuz the bigger picture is important too.

As for the "America: Love it or leave it." thing, well, I'm hardly equipped to comment, I'm nowhere near America. Honestly though, I don't give a rats ass about the country, it's just a place to live, bit of land sticking up outta the sea. The people in it, however, I hope to consider my friends (this means you Jas) and some of the shit that's happened to them (not even anyone in particular, just to people, living things) is horrible. I think that terrorism is despicable and should be combated, I just don't know if an all out arsenal will help. So, yeah, I guess the love it or leave it approach won't really work too well because with that attitude nothing would ever improve, the people who think their lives are shite to begin with will get it even worse and eventually leave and soon the people who used to love it will see what's actually going on.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 11:55 AM
Oh man...another one of these *eep*
Lemme put my helmet on first....

Patriotism isn't a dirty word. It's love of country and the people within it. I'm a patriot, I love my country...but as someone beat me to the punch, I'll reiterate. "I love my country, it's the gov i'm afraid of". I am also seriously concerned with the "homeland security act". It's the "protect us from ourselves" ideal...that we're too stupid or incompetent to take care of ourselves. That the only way for true peace and saftey is to lay the liberties that were fought so hard for a couple hundred years ago, at the feet of men who have rarely (if ever) walked in the common man's shoes. Who's life extends beyond the liberties of the average person.
I heard someone say once ( I dont' remember who) that they would gladly give up all their rights to live in a safe country....well brother all I have to say is lay down your rights to the gov, and you may not have to fear your fellow man, but a far worse enemy: BIG BROTHER. Lay down your own rights, see if I care. I'll fight tooth and nail for my own.
I don't like the idea of war. I think that the bullshit going on with Iraq right now is a cover for not being able to bring in the true culprit which "began" this whole ordeal It's a cover, a scam, and public relations smokescreen...and it'll erupt into the rich man's war of all wars. I would fight for my freedom, my life, and the lives of those I care for, but I'll be goddamned if I would willingly send a son, a husband, a father, or a daughter wife mother to their death over the whims of rich politicians seeking to further secure their wealth as we scrape and labor to make ends meet.
THe main problems of the world lie primarily between a couple of things, mainly the men in power. They play a constant game of he said she said and king of the hill mentality.
If I had it my way, if I were world ruler for one day, and whatever I said had to STICK (subliminal programming, mind you) I would fly to every country in the world, walk up to their leader, smack them on the back of the head and yell "CUT THAT SHIT OUT. YOU'RE NOT THAT GREAT, YOU'RE NOT THAT IMPORTANT, YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL, AND YOU'RE SCREWING SHIT UP EVERYWHERE ELSE. CUT IT THE FUCK *OUT*"
then I'd implant a shock device in their necks that isn't surgically removable or overrideable, and whenever one got all pissy and started something stupid I'd give 'em a zap. Whenever they did something good, they'd get a nice shot of electricity to their brain's happy center.

As for the paranoia....let 'em watch me. I don't do anything important, I don't do anything wrong. Let them post men on me to die of absolute boredom, I dont' care no skin off my ass.
I dont' like the idea of war

 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 05:49 PM
Monolycus, a couple of points.
You mention that what I do isn't charity work, that I am getting paid to put my life on the line. Some stats for you. Base pay for an E-4 with over 4 years in is $1680. With my allowance for food and rent, I bring in roughly $2300 a month. That adds up to $27,600 a year. According to Dr. Daniel H. Weinberg Chief, Housing and Household Economic Statistics Division U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/income01/prs02asc.html), the median income in America in 2001 was $42,200, $14,600 more than I make. The poverty level, as set by the government, is $11,610, $15,990 less than what I make. Clearly not bad, but clearly not good. Put it in perspective, though. Try to ask your average businessman to give up many of his rights, spend long periods of time away from his family, face possible death or torture from a group of people whose soul motivation is to beat you, and offer to pay him a base pay of $1600 with POSSIBLE perks. Like, hostile fire pay. That's a quick $150 a month. There's that new car!
We are all entitled to our own opinion. I don't think that if you don't agree with everything you should get out. That is one of the things that make our country great. I do think, however, that if you really hate the country that much, or live in total paranoia from all the G-men watching your every move 'cause you're that much of a threat, then get out.
I do have my own opinions about this country. I definately think we could do things better. I don't agree with the reasoning of attacking Iraq. It's a common opinion in the "brainwashed" military that it's a bad idea. I do beliave that if we go to war, though, that we do it right and finish it this time. I don't think money or oil is a good enough reason to do it, but I think that if done, for whatever reason, the Iraq people would be better off. Is it our job to step in? I don't know. Kinduva sticky question with good points for both arguements.
I do speak out when something is fucked. And I don't blindly take orders from guys with short haircuts. It doesn't work that way. If you got your head outta your ass and actually did some research instead of believing the all depicitions of the military on the TV, you might find yourself questioning your own hasty flames.
One more thing, spanky. The one time that I actually was in a position to get shot at, I wasn't feeling so good about myself. I like video games and cars and havin' a good time. NOT some wacko shooting at me. I did it, though, because it was, in my opinion, right. The patriotism I have is MINE. Not some force fed bullshit propaganda, but a love for my country and all the messed up fucks in it.
In review. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. You don't like mine, I don't like yours. Tough titties. Do I love my country? Yes. Do I fight for my country because of the money? No. Do I agree with everything? Hell no. Do I have an opinion and voice, a.k.a. an identity? Yes! Do I think that you need to do more research before flaming someone? You figure it out.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 08:29 PM
Okay, I really don't want to get involve in yet another argument on the War on Terror. However, if there's one thing I can't stand it's the attitude of "If yoo don't like the US, then get the fuck out!" How can anyone call themselves a patriot with that attitude when the Constitution specificly mentions that anyone who lives here can believe whatever the fuck they want and be vocal about it, even if they disagree with what their own government is doing. Shit, if NAMBLA is allowed to lobby, what's the matter with pacifism?
 

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  posted on 10/12/2002 at 08:55 PM
H_R: At ease. To begin with, you were rebutted, not flamed. Every post that I make is the watered-down version of what I have to say. If I typed everything that were on my mind, I would get moderated off this board if not stricken from this site entirely. Maybe one of these days when I am not so terribly concerned that people wouldn't be able to handle the tone, I'll open up with both barrels... but that was not today.

Secondly, you suggested that I research someone before disagreeing with them for what reason precisely? You already mentioned that you were active duty... but I will suggest that unless you share an office with Herr Poindexter, you do not have the first clue as to how "hasty" my opinion is about the military or any other thing about my background that I have not already volunteered. For the record, three of my closest friends are, respectively, a former US marine, a veteran corpsman (USN ret), and an active Lieutenant Colonel USAF. I pass through Wright Patterson Air Force Base just about three times a week and spent my first eighteen years on this planet as the dependent of a CPO in the United States Navy. My brother also enlisted in the Navy when he came of age. Nice ad hominem approach, but I did not, actually, form my opinion about servicemen from "depictions on TV". Try again.

I stand by my statement that you are paid to follow orders. I stand by my suggestion that you are in danger of breaking your arm from patting yourself on the back. When you do something "heroic" your superior officers will let you know. In the meantime, you are being paid to do your job. A fireman, policeman or EMS worker is paid to save people's lives and endanger their own. This does not make them heroes either. It makes them people whose particular choice of careers is riskier than others. Anyone can be "killed in the line of duty" and people who work at gas stations in run down neighbourhoods are a lot more likely to be shot at than you are. Oh yeah, they don't draw hazard pay for it either.

All these horror stories about how awful people have it in other countries is touching, but you neglect to mention the starvation, shanty towns, second class citizenship, or inequity of the judicial system that we have right here in the Good old U.S. of A. Further, in a good many cases, the third world conditions of many of those "backwards" foriegn nations in the world are perpetuated by US Imperialist foreign policies and US corporate exploitation. Wave those stars and bars but forget that those flags are actually made in a sweat shop in China where workers are paid BY AMERICANS for pennies an hour. That wage that you think is such a pittance for what you are asked to do is much, much better than many American's (and yes, I've lived in squalid inner cities... Boston and Chicago, and dealt with crippling poverty first hand) and a fortune to the non-American citizens of the world whose economies are generated by American corporate greed in the first place. Sorry if you can't buy a Maserati with your hazard pay, but you are light years ahead of many of the Hispanic immigrants I have had the pleasure of helping along. Oh yeah, I found myself staring down the barrel of guns a few times in that capacity but I do not get two federal holidays and a parade every year for it. Hell, I would just take the duty-free cigarettes.

The only flame I saw was when you attacked the anonymous poster and told them to join the service or shut up. I am constantly amazed at how servicemen crow about how they are so proud to be "protecting Americans" and yet resent good old-fashioned American dissent. It's just like the guy who runs a company and complains about how much work they would be able to get done if it weren't for all those lousy customers. Those "chicken shits" that you say you "Don't want in (your) (sic) military or (your) (sic) country" are the very Americans you were so proud a paragraph earlier about putting your life on the line for. You don't get to protect and serve only those Americans you personally like, and the hypocrisy of proudly protecting those worthless ingrates won't win friends or influence people either. A consistent ethos is another thing they apparently don't pound into your head in boot camp. As you were.

Bettie: The danger of "patriotism" is that it is, just like the term "family values" before it, being turned into a byword for intolerance and, in a few cases, overt racism. I do not disagree with most of the sentiments that you expressed, but there is a definite semantic problem that is forming over the use of this word. Many people believe that questioning American policies is somehow tantamount to treason. I assert that the true patriot seeks to make their nation the best it can be, they do not just love it in whatever shape they find it. I suspect that you feel the same way, but therein lies the insidious difficulty of using "patriotism" in a blanket context. It can as easily stand for "jingoism", "intolerance", and even "the colonial oppression of dissenters" as it is used in the present. Samuel Johnson had this meaning in mind when he said that "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Apart from that single semantic clarification, I agree with your observations.

I am, I was, I will be

unrepentantly,

~Monolycus.




 

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  posted on 11/12/2002 at 01:02 AM
Good points mono.
As for the EMS, Police, and Fire Dept...in my opinion they ARE heroes...they save lives. Someone who doesn't care about lives or others wouldn't pick a career like that...except for maybe some of the cops that are in it simply to graduate to public office or power or ego trips or whatever. But to me, generally, they are all heroes. They don't have great pay, they have high hazard risk, and are constantly under public scrutiny thanks to whiney little bitch criminals that were put in the back of a police car a little too roughly when they were caught trying to rob a convenience store. Or their wailing families that don't own up to the fact that their relative was a fucking criminal and deserved to take a few bullets when he pulled a gun on a cop. I've run into some dickhead cops in my life, but I"ve run into far more kind and concerned ones who just want to help, keep people safe, and save lives.
It may be a career, it may pay their bills, but there is a certain disposition that leads them to that career choice to begin with.
I've had a cop offer me a ride home from a bar when I couldn't get a hold of my husband to pick me up ( I hadn't been feeling good and the booze hit me harder than I expected...I'd even stopped drinking two hours before last call)...luckily I got ahold of him, but it was nice to see a cop wanting to keep me and others safe, without giving me a dirty look or the drunk lecture. most people are afraid of cops when they're drunk...I am not, not any longer.

As for the patriotism: you are right on some points as well. Seems we've got a bit of a middle ground eh? I am a patriot...I'm not a flag waver, I'm not an america junkie, and i dont' stand 100% behind our gov. Dissention and the voice of the public are what this country is about...and politicians hate that because it means they can't do what they want, that if they piss us off we can raise all sorts of hell for them.

I was wondering how long it would take for some underwear to bunch up

Uhm...can't we all just get along? *LOL* nah...then it wouldn't be HALF as fun...

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

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  posted on 11/12/2002 at 01:09 AM
Right on Mono...

 

____________________
It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus

 

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  posted on 11/12/2002 at 06:57 PM
Bettie: As usual, I don't think our actual feelings are as far apart as they sound like they are on paper. I am just a hardass about semantics. To me, heroics entail something above and beyond what is expected. Police, firefighters, emergency workers of all sorts, military personnel, et cetera, ad infinitum, all do a commendable job (except for notable abuses of power or incompetence, which are generally not the norm). They are necessary people to have to maintain the society we all enjoy. But the fact remains that they are trained to do what they do, they signed up for it, and it is not expected of them to do any less.

I am bothered by the fact that every day heroics, while not as glamourous as high-profile life-threatening work, tend to be overlooked. The father who lives on a shoestring to pay his child support is more heroic to me because he resists the (very real) temptation not to do the right thing. The guy who goes to his thankless, low paying, unrewarding, low profile job every day instead of making a quick buck by stealing or dealing drugs is more heroic to me. These aren't people who were trained to rush into the face of danger, these are just people who have the strength of character to promote civil behaviour while continually facing the less glamourous, but just as real, dangers of the degradation of the human condition instead of the instantaneous dangers that grab the headlines.

Still, I have some compunction about applying the label "hero" to these people because they, too, are merely doing what is expected of them. Life is not an easy thing. I admire the fact that anyone does their job well, but I believe that the need to have heroes at every turn is symptomatic that things are not going well. As Bertolt Brecht put it: "The nation without heroes is not as bad off as the nation that needs them." I know perfectly well that I will be percieved as a bogle for my failure to prostrate myself before the "heroes" of our day... but I think they get more than enough recognition without me gilding their lilies as well. Yeah, it sucks not to have your accomplishments recognised, but a real hero shouldn't let a little thing like that get them down. I am,

the heretic du jour,

~Monolycus.

 

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Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 12/12/2002 at 02:08 AM
True dat.

 

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Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

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Posts: 511
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 12/12/2002 at 10:43 AM
A real example of heroism would be what, then? Whenever anyone does something good and right, isn't it expected of them? I've read several stories of mothers who died by throwing themselves into oncoming traffic and tossing their toddlers out of the street to safety. Are they heroes, or was that expected of them because as a mother, you should be willing to lay down your life for your child? Would it be more heroic if the child in question were not their own? A lot of the time, heroism comes down to acting in the right manner in any given situation... and anyone can be a hero. Many people, when push comes to shove, act heroically without even thinking about it. The firefighter who runs into that burning building without a pause to consider the danger to himself is just as much a hero as the girl in school who risks censure to stand up for the picked-on outcast, despite what her peers may think of her. Nevermind that he gets paid for it. He could hesitate, think more of staying alive than getting that baby out, and fail. Training isn't everything... those people who have high-risk jobs have just as much a chance to be unheroic as anyone else. The ones that do save lives are to be commended.
 
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