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Humor: Why We Should Eat Animals |
Posted by
Geist on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 03:09 AM PST
Warning: The following article is rated PG-13 for views that may get my ass kicked by tofu.
Surgeon Generals Warning: Smoking may be hazardous to your health, so please don't flame me to bad.
Parental Advisory: Contains language and opinions that you may not like, but it's all in fun. Sarcasm ahead....
And now, our feature presentation.
I have heard many people voice their opinions on the wrongs of eating meat. I’ve seen numerous posters, web sites, stickers, etc. proclaiming how bad the general public is for consuming animals. But, if we weren’t meant to eat animals, why do they taste like meat?
I’m not saying that he have to revolt against vegetarianism, just that I see no point in wearing those abrasive shirts and stickers that say “Meat is Murder”. Meat is dinner. Carnivores in the wild hunt prey, brutally rip apart carcasses, and eat other animals. But you don’t hear about a lion being verbally attacked for “murdering” an antelope. Yes, they eat meat because it’s natural for them and they can’t reason not to. Well, the animals they eat can’t reason, either, so why are we so worried about their feelings?
Humans have been hunting and devouring their prey for thousands of years. I don’t remember ever reading about a Neolithic man pausing over his meal and saying, “Hey guys, what about how the animal feels?”
My main point is, animals are stupid. The ones we eat have no higher thinking skills whatsoever. Right before the butcher stuns the steer, it doesn’t get on its knees and plead for its life. The meat we buy at the supermarket and baste in hearty marinade hasn’t been beaten and abused, either. Cattle are born, eat nutritious grass and grain, and one day are blasted with a stunner and die. Not very romantic, but a candlelit steak dinner at a nice restaurant overlooking the sea is.
And tofu—look at it! As a replacement for real vitamins from meat, it’s not that good, and cutting it into the shape of a drumstick won’t make it taste any more like chicken. If vegans want to eat it, let them. But no matter what people say, I won’t be persuaded into putting white creamy chemical curds into my mouth, and I don’t suggest that you do, either.
Green stuff is fine—it’s good for you and tastes great. But what isn’t good it assuming that animals have self-help groups for coping with the loss of their herd-mates. Meat isn’t murder, it’s the flesh if domesticated animals raised for our sustenance.
They don’t know the difference, anyway.
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Note: I am posting this against my better judgement. |
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Average Rating : 3.5
Total ratings : 2
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Why We Should Eat Animals | Login/Create an account | 135 Comments |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Ironboots on Mar 13, 2003 - 08:49 AM
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Wow, Geist, you've got guts...
And I agree with you that it is perfectly normal to eat meat and to kill for it.
But...
1. Eating meat is pretty inefficient, since you have to have large acreages to sustain the cow, which then sustains you. If that acreage was put to vegetarian uses, it would feed more people. The more farm acres you need, the more forests fall to make room for it.
2. Most of the non-domesticated animals we eat (such as fish) are being hunted to extinction. You don't hear about potatoes being grown to extinction.
I'm a hypocrite. I tell you about this, but I still eat meat anyway. Because meat tastes sooo damn good... Ah, gotta get me some sausage... ;)
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Schizo (Aranea@spidersdance.com) on Mar 13, 2003 - 05:37 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | Actually, though it is true that acreage is "wasted" in pasturage for animals intended for food, the fact is there is plenty of food to go around. The problem is distribution, not availability. If we took the surplus grain that the U.S. produces, we could easily feed the entire world.
I am not a vegan, nor am I a vegetarian. I have never knowingly consumed tofu. I do have a problem with the meat industry, because there ARE way too many instances of animal abuse. But I agree. Consuming animals does not make me a murderer. It makes me an omnivore, like many other creatures on the face of the earth. If we are to vilify the meat-eaters of the human species, we should be equally angry at all the animal carnivores.
So I say, let's fight to pass some very strict laws about how animals bred for meat are treated, and enforce them carefully. And then, eat or do not eat meat as you desire. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by WorthlessLiar on Aug 15, 2005 - 10:22 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.goth.net/worthlessliar | actually potatoes have been grown to extinction- the great potato famine of ireland killed thousands because they weren't rotating their cropps. the potatoes leached all the of the nutrients out of the soil turning ireland into a dust bowl (just like America during the great depression) |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by feralucce on Mar 13, 2003 - 10:41 AM
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My reasons for eating meat are more basic... we are designed to be omnivors. period... we have the teeth for it, the digestive tract for it, and the violent mentality of the hunter... I don't fight my instincts...
Kudos
Feral
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 06, 2003 - 10:28 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Silver back gorillas have the largest and most formidable canine teeth in the animal kingdom, yet they are strict vegetarians. Our teeth ARE omnivorous teeth, but more designed towards vegetation, with the incisors for chopping and the majority of our teeth being tough grinders. Humans scavenged for the most part. Occasionally hunted, and meat was not such a part of their diet as it has become. Most major cultural societies (goddamned you and my horrid short term memory making me have to search the net to remind me which ones they were..) of ancient history were vegetarian societies, or societies where meat was indulged in only on sacred events and not eaten regularly.
and .........
people don't have instincts
*takes cover* |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com) on Apr 06, 2003 - 11:28 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Speak for yourself, chicki-poo... MY instincts have saved my sorry ass on many more than one occasion...
and the paleolithic people DID eat lots of meat regularly... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10702160&dopt=Abstract
Most hunter-gatherer societies ate as much meat as they could get ahold of, and supplemented it with what they could gather. The Inuit natives can only survive on animal protein, as plants don't grow very well where they are. We are designed to eat meat, it's grains that mess us up. Our bodies are still genetically programmed for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, and not the agricultural one. Sure, it was sometimes easier to go pick berries when they were in season, but whenever they could, they caught fish, small animals, birds, eggs, and yes, hunted big game animals.
And this says that it was grains used for sacred events... http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba12/ba12feat.html#richards
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 07, 2003 - 03:54 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Grains are used in almost every ancient culture on sacred events, you're right on that :)
It depends on the culture, mind you I didn't say ALL or even MOST cultures, just I believe it was about three MAJOR ancient cultures (not hunter/gather tribes but dug in "civilized" population centers. GRR I SAW it on the discovery channel and they are NOT helping me right now) that were MOSTLY vegetarian. I don't deny AT ALL that the invention of tools to hunt big game didn't play an enormous part in our very very very early evolution from simple minded hairy 3 ft hominids to larger more intelligent and ingenuitive and ultimately more HUMAN animals. People such as yourself that NEED animal protein are examples of adaptations in the human species very early on where animals were the ONLY thing to eat, or at least the most readily available source of food. Early humans that lived in other climates that were abundant in large amounts of growing food relied mostly ON that plant source of nutrition AND whatever meat they could scavenge or catch. Humans are opportunistic hunter/scavengers and take advantage of whatever food source is most easily available, depending on the climate and the resources.
As for instincts (and feral I know you hate me because of this, but I'm going ahead with it anyway), they are far different from intuition (most easily definable as a 6th sense) and urges (biological demands). Survival isn't an instinct, it's a biological urge to stay alive. If it WERE an instinct (the definition of that being a hard wired genetic behavior consisting of a set pattern of unlearned actions inherant in every single member of a species without exception) then there would not be suicide or people who are injured that just "lay down to die". If the "mothering" aspect were an instinct (as it's so often called) then there would not be mothers dumping babies in garbage cans or abusive parents or "unwanted" children. ALL of our behaviors are taught to us since birth. Even that first drink of milk after we're born. The hungry infant wails, not knowing WHY it's miserable, until it's show and urged to drink. MOST infants catch right on. There are some that don't. Since the "instinct" to suckle is not hardwired into the brain, and not every infant knows or catches on right away, it cant be an instinct. Before the advent of "technologies" (even that being primitive methods to trick the infant to suckle) to get the kid to "get it", that child would starve and die.
As our species evolved and became more advanced (even in the simplest ways) we began to LOSE our instincts, and we no longer posess them today. With the disappearance of these instincts and as our brains grew larger and more complex, we began heighten attention to our urges and "intuitions" as without our long gone instinct, we'd be lost without them.
Birds migrating every year at the same time is instinct, or building a nest, a spider weaving a web is instinct, whales swimming thousands of miles to a certain place at an exact time simply to breed is instinct. They are not taught, they are BORN with the blueprints for those activities in their brains.
I am more than confident meranda, that your urges and intuition and intellect have saved your ass more than once, and I'm there with you on that. As a poor hapless member of a species that abandoned nature's blueprints for sucessful life, I thank hell EVERY DAY that I have my intuitions. It's ONE of the good things of having a more developed brain....that and not letting nature boss me around anymore :P
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by MorteAscendo (corpsmanwix@aol.com) on Apr 07, 2003 - 02:36 AM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | Havent you ever seen Congo!!! They where ripping apart People and eating them!!! EVIL MONKEYS!!!
*wink*
-Mort |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Merry_Widow on Apr 07, 2003 - 02:43 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Little red monkey, monkey, monkey, little red monkey... |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 07, 2003 - 03:57 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | OH my god that was the WORST MOVIE EVER.
No wait, that was anaconda *shudder*
No wait, that was "the crow: lost souls".
UGH.
No, okay, congo was the worst. With that horrible fake ass lookin gorilla. And that fake ass lookin "hidden city" and those giant fake ass "diamonds". I think I drank through the whole thing to make it bearable. The only thing worse than the plot was the acting.
Thank you for just reminding me of possibly the most booring and pointless hour and a half of my life, asshole. *giggle* ASSHOLE! |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Merry_Widow on Apr 07, 2003 - 05:18 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I would put forth that Sphere was the worst movie ever. Either that, or the Final Fantasy movie. God, those are hours of my life I'm never going to get back. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 07, 2003 - 08:32 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | I drank my way through the remake of "house on haunted hill"....as SOON as I heard Marilyn Manson in the opening credits I popped the seal on a bottle of vodka and OJ and proceeded to enhance my movie going experience.
Same with that awful third crow movie "lost souls". It was a waste of a good afternoon and good booze. Bleh, I should send them a bill.... |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com)
on Mar 13, 2003 - 01:27 PM
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I think good, hot bacon tastes better than anything ever shown to me as being vegetables.
And besides, vegetables scream too.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by feralucce on Mar 14, 2003 - 05:17 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | A torn leaf, when photographed with teh kirlean method (aura photography) will show itself intact, with the torn part still represented in its aura. this, to me, indicates that the plants ahve a higher sense of feeling too...
Feral |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 06, 2003 - 10:23 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Well first you have to have cold hard evidence that auras exist (which, as with many things ie: ghosts, demons, God etc, there may never be a way to "prove" it OR disprove it, either because it's bogus or because we'll always be too primitive to find a way or understand it), and then prove that in order to have an aura you have to have the ability to feel and/or register pain/suffering.
If people have "auras" and that it indicates a higher sense of feeling, then do children born with the disorder that does not allow them to register the sensation of pain not have auras? If they DO still have auras, then having an aura does not necessarily go hand in hand with a higher sense of feeling. If they do NOT...then well....we can eat the kids too. With lots of asparagus. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by feralucce on Apr 07, 2003 - 03:33 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | Dictionary.com defines an aura as an invisible breath, emanation, or radiation. Now... when one considers the fact that ALL living things posses a magnetic field... the presense of an aura is substantiated by this scientific FACT... Kirlian photography, of which I was speaking, produces a complete leaf imprint... not a blurry image, we're talking comeplete... with veins and ourline, comeplete image...
Feral |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 07, 2003 - 04:11 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Right, I know the definition and the scientific fact of the energy field bit, but it depends on if you are speaking of a magnetic field type aura that IS scientifically proven (which you nicely pointed out for me, thank you) or the "mystic" type aura that most people think about...you know that deal with the colors defining your personality and spirit and mood and whatever. Either it's a magnetic or energy field that yes, everything posesses, or it's a SPIRITUAL field that POSSIBLY everything posesses. And then, does that fact alone (the magnetic/energy field bit you pointed out OR the spiritual field) define whether or not something has a heightened sense of feeling (such as pain), and how does a person go about proving it? Because if it does, then how, as I've asked before, does that come into play in the instance children with the disorder that makes them "immune" to pain? Because if those children indeed have an aura (magnetic/energy OR spiritual) then it can be lead to believe that an aura does not necessarily go hand in hand with a heightened sense of feeling. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Psychopixi (psyche-at-psychopixi-dot-com)
on Mar 13, 2003 - 01:55 PM
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I agree. Meat is food. Food is good.
I don't think that there is anything wrong with eating meat provided that the animals are raised and then killed in a humane way. Why should we fight our way to the top of the food chain to just eat vegetables? Just because we have the intellect to choose, doesn't mean we are obliged to choose to be vegetarian.
Like you said, animals in the wild eat meat - they don't get hassled for it because they are born predators. We are born omnivores. Yeay for steak and chips.
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Hello hamburger my old friend.
by Dolorosa (SixOfSwords@IU.zzn.com)
on Mar 13, 2003 - 02:11 PM
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You know...it'd probably be more fun if they did beg for their lives...and reading this post made me want a hamburger, although I doubt it's actually meat.
KIlling I don't have a problem with, torturing I do...thats a sickness inherent in us, and reflects poorly upon our dignity as a species. I had a job for a few days as a cow knocker just recently...it was fun, but I really don't think I could do it again...it's easier and has more meaning to take out a person than it does a cow.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Merry_Widow on Mar 13, 2003 - 03:49 PM
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I like meat. Hamburgers go well with my freedom fries.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:04 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Well it'd have to be a "freedom burger" AND "freedom fries" because germany ain't with us on this either and they're raising a stink over THAT too! |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 11:34 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | AhahhAHAHAH
Oh god this could get interesting. We should just rename every food out there.
I'm eating a kimchee ramen bowl right now, and since we're waist deep in it with North Korea right now I guess I'd have to fuckin call it "freedom ramen".
Just when you thought you'd seen everything.. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Merry_Widow on Mar 16, 2003 - 12:33 AM (User info | Send a Message) | mmm...freedom ramen...complete with the liberty broth of justice! |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Abbadon on Apr 06, 2003 - 08:10 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Hahaha. I love Americans, they are the only people on Earth stupid enough to think they have freedom. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 07, 2003 - 04:15 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | No dear that's when you tell them that they're FREE (as we americans are not, aparently) to do what they want, which is preferably in his case to SUCK DEEP.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com)
on Mar 13, 2003 - 03:52 PM
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"My main point is, animals are stupid."
Um. they are not. who are you to really say how unintelligent they are or not? Pigs in fact are known to be number 6 in the top ten most intelligent animals.
im vegan now, I recently started because from health issues and cruelty twards animals.
Recently i watched a documentry on factory farms that made me in tears. Why you may ask? because the workers shown in this documentry, who had the same opinion about animals being stupid, were anally raping pigs with metal polls (while trapped in thier little tiny pins mind you, so they cant get away) and laughing about it. In fact thats not even the part that made me cry, what made me cry was watching this poor sow with a broken shoulder, being beaten by the same men, They let her get away, and then right when she would lay down to rest or rather it looked like to peacefully die, they beat on her again. and again. Oh ha ha! look how DUMB the pig is!
After being to weak to move, the other man grabbed a cement block and dropped it on her head, twice. This was all in a factory farm, a place were the animals are grown to make you that pork chop that sits on your plate.
so.. to quote you again "The meat we buy at the supermarket and baste in hearty marinade hasn’t been beaten and abused, either. Cattle are born, eat nutritious grass and grain, and one day are blasted with a stunner and die. Not very romantic, but a candlelit steak dinner at a nice restaurant overlooking the sea is. "
Unless your buying free range and organic. your statement is compleatly false. these animals are beaten. starved, raped, tormented, crammed into little pins with no comfort whatsoever. Left to live in thier own shit. literally.
Im not saying you have to be a vegan or vegetarian. Im just saying that alot of people are blind to whats really going on and have alot of false judements on those wonderful "farms".
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by MystryssRavynDarque (A1MANDI04@AOL.COM) on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:11 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Hey Vampcourt, you might like this book I am reading. "The Sexual Politics of Meat: A Feminism-Vegeterianism Critical Theory" it is by Carol J. Adams. Enjoy! |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Psychopixi (psyche-at-psychopixi-dot-com) on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:25 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://psychopixi.com | OMG, that literally made me feel ill in a stomach churning, I-don't-know-if-Im-going-to-throw-up-or-start-crying way. I had no idea that that was happening. I kind of hoped that there weren't people as sick as that around. Okay, so maybe I'm sick, but I would love to see that same thing happen to those men. That's disgusting behaviour, and I'm thoroughly ashamed of being human after reading it.
How can people take pleasure, or find amusement in doing things like that? *shudders* I read an RSPCA article once on a pregnant horse who was killed by two teenage boys. They used a metal pole, and beat her with it, before shoving it through her eye socket and killing her. The article went into slightly more detail, but as I'm getting teary thinking about it, I don't think I'm going to write it. Lets just say I wished *so very very badly* that I could hurt those boys. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com) on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:34 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.geocities.com/vampcourt/index.html?1017202482720 | hey check out this website if you would like to learn more about factory farms..
www.afa-online.org
Im not a millitant vegan.. it just broke my heart to see such unneeded cruelty twards animals.
we dont need to eat meat. and dont need milk either. but thats the opinion that i choose to have.
its really up to the individual.. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Psychopixi (psyche-at-psychopixi-dot-com) on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:43 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://psychopixi.com | Thanks for the link, I've bookmarked it and will have a look tomorrow. I'm supposed to be doing to second part of a psychology essay at the moment.
Thanks! |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Psychopixi (psyche-at-psychopixi-dot-com) on Mar 17, 2003 - 01:29 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://psychopixi.com | I've been and gona and looked. And now I'm faced with an interesting dilemma - you see - I still have no qualms over actually eating meat, but the way that they go about getting it just sickens me.
I would like to both stop the stupid abuse that the animals have to suffer and be able to continue to eat meat. I don't want the animals to suffer just so I can get fed. :o( |
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dietary hypocrasy by IamSquid (undisclosed) on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:47 PM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | milk is where I'm a hypocrite. I still drink it and eat cheese because I looooooooooove the taste
it is entirely unnatural for an adult human to drink cow's milk.
I find it interesting that most people would never suckle at a cow's utter yet they would drink it's milk (this is, to mee, like refusing to give head but being okay with swallowing). It's funnier that if yoo were to ask a person if they would drink the milk of any animal besides a cow, they will normally be disgusted. What makes a cow any different? Funnier still is that many people are disgusted by the idea of drinking breast milk. |
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Re: dietary hypocrasy by MystryssRavynDarque (A1MANDI04@AOL.COM) on Mar 13, 2003 - 05:11 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I don't drink milk or eat cheese due to my lactose intolerance, but I like the taste of soy milk. It is very good, though it is tan in color. Soy is better for the body than cow's milk too. |
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Re: dietary hypocrasy by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com) on Mar 13, 2003 - 06:23 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.geocities.com/vampcourt/index.html?1017202482720 | Im quoting this guy in a pamplet that bettie_x gave me
"The human body has no more need for cows' milk than it does for dogs milk, horses milk, or giraffes milk"
And i also, i find it funny that we are the only species that drinks the milk of another species.
boy they sure are stupid animals.. but i'll drink fluids that come from its body.. Hyuck.
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Re: dietary hypocrasy by KatB on Mar 13, 2003 - 06:33 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.magicka.net | Repeating myself a bit here - but how well do we need cigarettes and alcohol?
That argument doesn't go down well with me, anyway.
PS - I don't drink milk. I don't like it. I love booze, so I drink that.
Oooh just remembered - we are not the only species!!! Ther are some insects that uses stuff from other insects to fed on, completely harmless to all involved. Can't remember which, something from Natur Channel I suppose. We might be the only mammals, tho'...
Damn I'm ranting today.
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Re: dietary hypocrasy by KatB on Mar 13, 2003 - 06:59 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.magicka.net | Hell no!!! Forget I mentioned it!!! Booze IS good for you, as long as it's not fermented yak milk, like the mongols feasted on... |
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Re: dietary hypocrasy by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 01:35 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | good point darlin, but cigarettes and alcohol aren't body fluids specially designed and full of hormones and antibodies and such to grow a member of that species.
They are both man made....and besides, a lot of vegans that I know are straight edge as well :) |
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Re: dietary hypocrasy by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com) on Mar 17, 2003 - 12:59 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Ants raise Aphids in order to milk them ... http://www.gridclub.com/fact_gadget/1001/nature/insects_and_spiders/241.html |
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Re: dietary hypocrasy by Xaoswolf (Xaoswolfathotmaildotcom) on Mar 17, 2003 - 11:41 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://Xaoswolf.tripod.com | Probably the main differance between straight from the udder and from the carton, would be the pasturization process.
Also, I would happily try another animals milk, and if an attractive woman was lactating, and asked me if I wanted to give it a try, I probably would. |
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Re: dietary hypocrasy by feralucce on Mar 18, 2003 - 09:36 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | *chuckles* Good poing Suck swallow... EXCEPT... milk, in the general market isn't taken straight from the udder and jugged (not any more) homogenized milk has be processed... it is no more natural than pop-rocks...
BUT don't even get me started on BGH... I have nothing against meat, but if you research the effects of bovine growth hormon on milk... you will turn away from that as well...
Also, aphids and ants... Certain bats and blood... Chuba cabra and goats... Lamprey and larger fish... all devouring bodily fluids to survive...
Feral |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by feralucce on Mar 13, 2003 - 05:41 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | i do side with court on this... the Pig is about as intelligent as your average three year old... and octopi are known to demonstrate incredible problem solving capabilities....
Feral |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Geist (tattooedslacker@yahoo.com) on Mar 13, 2003 - 07:06 PM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | Hmmmm. I'm really sorry if this offended you for that was not the purpose... I myself, although I do eat some meat occasionally, for the most part my diet could be considered vegitarian. This is how a lot of people see the issue though. And few realize the cruelty that animals are put through at some farms. ::Sigh:: Sarcasam and the internet are so not compatible... Although I am not against eating meat, I would stop the poor treatmeant of animals if I could but this isn't a perfect worl we're living in. People will be cruel, there will be war, drugs, poverty, famine, and none of it will ever go away. |
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Yeah rrright! by KatB on Mar 13, 2003 - 07:39 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.magicka.net | Come on, I suspect you knew exactly what you started! But thats OK, good discussions ARE healthy, and there's been both good, funny and sad remarks so far :-) |
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Re: PS by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 01:40 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Eh you just haven't had a REAL cook make it for you :) If I coudl live off one thing for the rest of my life, it would be fried tofu and peanut sauce. I'm serious.
It ALL depends on how you cook it. I mean hell, MEAT tastes like crap if it's cooked or prepared poorly (eh it tastes like crap anyway!).
I swear to you darlin, a week's worth of dinners at my house would change your mind FO-EVAH...I promise. Ask court, she got a good sample of my vegan culinary abilities on her trip here, and even her carnivorous friend had NO complaints (and even a compliment or two! I even got one from my "steak and eggs maniac" brother once when I made him dinner)
I rule the vegan kitchen. Call me bettie-fucking-crocker of DOOM and I'll rock your tastebuds, believe me *HA!* |
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Re: PS by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:03 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | God I feel like that commercial for "zataran's" cajun rice.
"Baby, you ready fo MAH KITCHIN?"
If you ever visit seattle and want to experience the most heavenly totally vegan chinese food (I am a FIEND for chinese and thai food...drool) visit "bamboo garden" on roy street near the seattle center/EMP/Fun Forrest. It's 100% vegan traditional chinese cuisine. I've taken friends that were hardcore carnivores there for dinner and they said it was the best chinese food they've eaten EVER.
I love cooking for people (especially people that think that vegan food is raw tofu and beansprouts three times a day *lol*) and my goal eventually is to open a restaurant. I'm currently searching for govt. grants that give money to people to open businesses! Yeah baybee gimme yo money! |
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Re: PS by KatB on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:12 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.magicka.net | Will keep that in mind :D I'm sorry to say veganism would be either impossible, or rather dull (not to say unhealthy) over here, there´s NOTHING to get exept plain tofu, and soy milk, and it costs A LOT... |
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Re: PS by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 11:36 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | OO you're in europe, am I right? I thought veganism would be impossible too, back when well, it WAS. And you'd be suprised just what foods ARE vegan...mostly the cheap stuff. It's cheap because there's nothing "real" in it! lol
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Xaoswolf (Xaoswolfathotmaildotcom) on Mar 17, 2003 - 11:36 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://Xaoswolf.tripod.com | I'm guessing that what you saw was not the norm. In much the same way that people will bring up the few assholes that shoot up schools and condemn all goths, PETA and other such organisations will bring up a few cases of perverse jerkoffs raping pigs and condem all meat eaters. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 06, 2003 - 10:11 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | I don't condemn all meat eaters, personally...only those that eat factory farm produced meat (which is almost all meat in your grocer's meat dept). I have less a problem with those that raise their own HUMANELY (as humane as it can get anyway) or buy free range (ie: it has a life before the knife) because at least then they aren't tortured to the degree of factory farm animals. They still die, and I hate it, but it's the lesser of two evils.
People who contribute to the demand for meat ARE responsible for the mistreatment of the animals that they consume as they create a demand for a brutal product. The consumption of meat, in the quantities that americans demand for the prices they demand, is directly responsible for the uprise of cruel factory farms who's only goal is to produce the most product for the least amount of money pain and suffering be damned. I read in an orientation manual for a factory hog farm once, and I quote: "Remember. It is not a pig. It is a consumer comodity to be processed as quickly and effectively and cheaply as possible." Not a pig. Not an animal. Bullshit.
The consumption of dairy products also leads to culpablity in brutalising animals, as the cows are forcibly inseminated, gestated, then have their offspring taken away to be sold to the meat industry, and after that they are milked as hard, fast, and long as possible, even to the point of disease and usually death.
Social stigmas based on appearance, or behavior based on music preference, hold no water, are not based on fact (but usually on hysteria and ignorance). There is no line between point A and point B. There IS however, a direct red line from consumption of factory farm animal products, to brutalization of said animals. It's not just sick fucks torturing an animal here or there, it's the process from birth to speedy death. People are realising this more and more each year, and have actually DONE somthing about it.
A boycott against safeway grocery stores and McDonald's food chain resulted in a contractual agreement to ONLY buy their meat and such from sources that are in the biz of treating their animals humanely, and said biz's are subject to suprise inspections from the companies themselves. If neglect, abuse, or torture is found, no matter how large or small scale, they will cancel their contract with that biz and seek another that will stand good on their word. It is a step in the right direction, and I applaud BOTH comapnies for stepping up to the demands of the public and doing something good.
If you make an effort to only buy free-range, or raise your own animals, then props to you for lessening the impact of factory farms on the public perceptions of meat and dairy. I can respect someone who can look their dinner in the eyes and still do the deed.
I know it sounds like I'm blowin my stack on you, but I SWEAR I'm not, I promise. You know how worked up I can get on these topics, it's as near and dear to me as any religious fanatics holds their tortilla that looks like jesus and cries tacosauce. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by feralucce on Apr 07, 2003 - 03:28 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | *Snorts* I condemn those that condemn others for their own personal choices. It just seems... that we should worry more about humane treatment of people before we worry about the treatment of animals...
Feral |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 07, 2003 - 04:44 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Uhm first off I have NO other vegans in my family, and I don't condemn THEM I condemn the ACT. As I've stated so very many ridiculous times, I don't hate people just on the basis of eating meat. I hate the fact that they DO it, but that is NOT their whole person. Period.
I condemn NOBODY for their "personal choices" but when someone says that they aren't responsible for it, when they regularly consume meat that comes from factory suppliers, then they're wrong, because the consumption of factory farm animals is creating a market for abuse. I DO CONDEMN the ACT of consuming abused animals. NOT the people. All I ask is that they look into it and question THEMSELVES if they're comfortable eating the flesh of something that was abused since birth.
It's the equivalent of looking the other way when you see child abuse. If you're not part of the solution you're culpable for a small part of the problem by allowing it to continue. looking the other way, passing the buck, ignorance is bliss.
All I've ever asked is that if people are gonna eat meat, then do it responsibly. If you're gonna eat meat, then do it humanely. I would like for it to be done with completely, but I know it won't ever be, for biological and personal reasons, and I'm okay with that. But it's the demand for massive amounts at the lowest price that lead to abuse.
As for the woes of the world, fuck 'em. I thought stupidly at one point that I was going to go into an organization that would make a difference, fix the world, help people.
Then I realised that people don't want to be helped. And those that wanted help wouldn't listen to it. People like being fucked up, like being crazy, so I decided to turn my affections elsewhere. Animals are far more worthwhile to me than any person could ever hope to be. I'd rather waste my efforts on a suffering beast born into the worst position in life imaginable, then someone who put themselves there by their own stupidity. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Abbadon on Apr 06, 2003 - 04:17 PM (User info | Send a Message) | A pigs orgasm lasts half an hour. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Abbadon on Apr 06, 2003 - 04:18 PM (User info | Send a Message) | A pigs orgasm lasts half an hour. But dolphins are the only animals apart from humans to copulate for pleasure. Pigs don't sound very clever to me. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com) on Apr 06, 2003 - 08:34 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Bonobos do... a lot... http://www.blockbonobofoundation.org/ |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by IamSquid (undisclosed)
on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:19 PM
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I'm a vegetarian though not a militant vegetarian. Militant vegetarians tend to piss mee off, but even more so, militant carnivores piss mee off.
Why? Because it's a fact that it is unnatural for a human to consume meat. If yoo disagree, try comparing a human colon to a carnivereous colon. Big differance! Now try comparing it to an omniverous colon, still a big differance! Now try comparing it to an herbivorus colon, notice any similarities? Our digestive system is not meant to process meat, and has trouble doing such. Thus in the vast majority of cases (there are always exceptions) it is unhealthy for a human to consume dead animals.
Why yoo shouldn't eat meat is because it's unnatural.
Moreso, I am a vegetarian because I don't care for the taste or smell. This is usually what gets militant carnivores to shut up. At that point they usually say, "If yoo were stuck out in the woods and yoo had to eat an animal to live, would yoo?"
Of course, it's entirely unnatural to ignore yor survival instinct. Furthermore, in such a scenario I would most likely be hunting and killing it myself (thus I don't have to support concentration camps...er I mean...farms)
But that's the way I see it and I respect the way yoo see it.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 01:44 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Thank you squid :)
Not many people are willing to compare the meat industry with concentration camps, tho by far the meat industry treats it's victims as cruelly as the SS did the unfortunates of europe.
Humans, when they had to forrage and whatnot, ate meat rarely. It was a part of their diet, to some extent, but not a major part of it. They did NOT drink milk, tho. That came hundreds of thousands of years later, when agriculture begot "civilization". |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by IamSquid (undisclosed) on Mar 14, 2003 - 05:46 PM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | This is one of the reasons, I'm almost okay with eating Fish and Venican. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com)
on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:23 PM
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"This isn't food! This is what food eats!"
I was not thrilled with www.masskilling.com.
I believe PeTA and vegan scare and hostility tactics only make meat eaters more pissed, and when you get pissed, you get hungry.
I am not opposed to cannibalism, especially if I get to eat vegan flesh. *Grin*
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by IamSquid (undisclosed) on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:38 PM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | actually, if yoo were going to go cannibal, a vegan would be the ideal choice. Generally the best meat on a human body is the the lungs (most vegans tend to be non-smokers, although many still smoke marijuana) and the liver (most vegans tend to not drink). The digestive organs are also gnerally less tainted since vegans are so selective about what they put into themselves.
Vegans also tend to be in better shape and thus their muscle tissue is better meat.
If yoo ever manage to cook a vegan burger, invite mee to the BBQ (I might be veggie, but I sure am curious) |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com) on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:49 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | Though I would say that most likely a person with a balanced diet that eats proper meat every now and then would give an nice salty flavor to the mix. Lung, personally, are too thin to cook with extra preparation and some side flavorings. Most of the cannibals our society have produced are fond of legs and arms, and a little animal protein used to build the muscle makes it less stringy and more robust in flavor. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by IamSquid (undisclosed) on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:54 PM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | most modern American cannibals aren't eating for the nutritional value of the meat. I would assume eating a human leg would be for the sheer enjoyment of tearing the meat off of the femur like a Tyrannosaur devistating it's prey. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 01:50 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | OH great now I'm gonna have another fucking dinosaur nightmare *shudder*
Protein is protein, whether it comes from an animal or a plant, and like I stated somewhere else, yes most vegans are straightedge so the quality of the meat would be higher. The tenderness factor would come from whether or not the vegan in question was an exercise nut, because as we learned from veal farms, the most tender muscle tissue is muscle tissue that is atrophed. The japanese had special cows preserved for the emperor that was fed on only the finest grains and such and not permited to stand or walk, and was massaged twice daily by specially trained masseurs to ensure the most tender muscle tissue for the emperor's palate.
Canibalism or murder of other species, it's all the same, it's all gross. But I have to hand it to a carnivore that is an all out carnivore, carnivore to the bone that would even eat another human, and ADMIT IT, should the legal opportunity arise. I figure if you're gonna be a carnivore, do it right. Besides we could use the extra elbow room. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by feralucce on Mar 18, 2003 - 09:44 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | Protein is protein, yes... BUT... plant protein lacks one thing... amino acids... amino acids are needed for seratonin production, neutransmission, and construction of new cells... Plants cannot provide the needed amino acids as we get these from fats...
Feral |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Shade (Shade@Gothcult.com)
on Mar 13, 2003 - 04:38 PM
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This is too funny, Geist, I gotta hand it to you, it's nice to see someone sticking up for the meat end of the spectrum. I actually live an almost entirely vegetarian lifestyle. Not because I care about the mistreatment, but because I smell funny to me when I eat meat. Every once in a while I get a craving for animal protein, and I tend to fill it with sardines or smoked oysters.
Quite honestly, at this point I don't think there is anyone left on the site that doesn't know what goes into the whole process of meat production. Thank you Betty and everyone else who has contributed to our knowledge, I mean that, how can we make informed decisions without the full knowledge?
Personally, once we stop discovering the vast number of ways mother nature has designed to keep our population in check and young enough to breed I will feel more inclined to vote on the subject. Yes, meat is toxic, even in it's free range form, yes, so is milk, it's bad for you even when sucked from the wild cow's teat. BUt apple's contain arsenic, rhubarb will kill you in less than 24 hours if prepared improperly, a large portion of our population is allergic to soy, peanuts, strawberries, cumin, apples, legumes, and any number of other natural products. For that matter, oxygen is the most toxic substance we know of...Until there is something I can eat and drink and breathe without it being cancerous, poisonous, or toxic in any other way; I'm not going to be bothered with the 'moral arguments' of whether meat is murder or inefficient or anything else.
As a species humankind is learning to feed itself in a world with a population explosion issue. Until the early seventies we weren't even half our current numbers. The issue of how much land it takes to raise a cow is so moot at this point in the life cycle of grocery shopping that I can't take it seriously. There are honestly a large number of people out there who would flat out die if we were to stop meat production. Withdrawls can be a bitch.
One last point and then I'll step off this wobbly soapbox, we may not be in danger of farming the potato into extinction, but in many cases that is only because it's already been done. Many of the vegetables we currently eat today have been bred into a form their natural predescessors would not recognize enough to cross breed with. Well, OK, that's not true per se, but most plants are so randy they'll breed with anything :)
And on that note, eat well, take two tums and if you call me in the morning I'll smoke and pout at you!
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Confessions of an enlightened meateater...
by Anonymous-Coward on Mar 13, 2003 - 05:59 PM
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There has been some very good points made from both sides here so I shall try not to repeat too much of them...
That pig farm story was sad - cruelty towards helpless
creatures is hideous no matter what.
Those bastards deserve a life long repetition of their actions turned on them, and that's that.
But it's still no reasing for banning pork production - there are many assholes being cruel to their pets to - I don't think good pet owners should be punished for that.
But did you know, even if a pig might not be as cute as a dog, it's actually sopposed to be smarter? And they sure as hell are a lot more smarter than my darling Pucifer.
Pixie - on of the really shitty things about the EU is their attitude towards animal industry.
This is where the REAL torture enters the picture - when dealing with thinking creatures as industry, and fucking with their genes.
Man, what goes on in the meat industry all over the world - I swear the old nazi scientist/doctors are grinning in their graves.
Cows are being bred so unnaturaly for producing more meat, every moment of their existence is SUFFERING.
Chicken being stuffed in a cubicle not larger than their body volume, to be boiled alive.
Need I go on? I think not. It is certainly NOT funny.
The sad truth is that when commerce takes over, the pennies count.
Even though industrial slaughtering tend to ruin the meat - the chemicals produced by fear (anyone who have heard the screaming of pigs will now this: They DO know fear) do ruin the quality of the meat.
Knowing all this, and more, why do _I_ eat meat?
I grew up on a farm, with pigs, chicken, cows and horses. In the summer they were all outside in the pastures, doing whatever they wanted, running around, and in winter they had warm, comfortable barns with plenty of space. It was a big farm by Norwegian standards, but all the cows had a name, and if a sow (?? mother pig?) refused a piglet to succle, we bottlefed it.
And when it was time for them to go, we waved godbye - for me as a kid it was always a little sad, but they didn't seem to be in any kind of distress.
I helped deliver calves, bottlefed them, named them, played with them, and don't think twice about enjoying a tender veal roast.
I would not eat human flesh though - considering all the crap human put in them.
I know meat is not good for me either - but the tobacco and alcohol I indulge in is way worse.
Oh yes, and the only tofu I've tasted (I'm sure they've come up with a better range in the US) tasted like - NOTHING! And I do love food with good, natural flavour.
Ask Squid about the Norwegian apples - there's nothing like them in the whole world, I swear!
Try to sum up... Personally I don't have a problem with meat production, I do however have a big problem with cruelty.
PS - I also love a good steak of whale. They are cute, and they DO communicate, but all science proves one point: They are not as smart as they're given credit for. Well, I'd eat them anyway. Keeping that old sodden Keiko alive (from Free Willy) would have taken care of the debts of a couple of African nations, no kidding.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Starlight (elenmea@hotmail.com)
on Mar 13, 2003 - 10:03 PM
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I am a member of Peta, but the way I normally do things is to show the facts, and tell what I do personally, and changes I've made, and let each person decide what to do themselves. That is normally, meaning if someone is not torturing or abusing an animal, but if there is something I feel strongly about I might say something or step in or send a postcard to a corporation or member of a committee.
I have most of my life just not eaten much meat, and at one point I decided never to eat meat again. Not drinking milk was easy, as I'm allergic to milk and I drink soy milk. I do, however, eat cheese. I have to watch how much or I get the runs and a stuffy nose and intestinal pains all that goes with being basically allergic to dairy. If I could happen accross something that tastes good as a fake cheese around here, then I'd give up cheese completely. Some of the herbs and almost any capsule I've been given Rx and OTC tend to have gelatin as the capsule, if there's a substitute I try to use it, but it can't be avoided sometimes. My husband tries to eat as little meat as he can, and he's not a big meat eater anyways, but with him being a trucker, he can't find a lot of meat-free meals at the truckstops, etc. and again I let each person make their own decisions on what is right for them.
I don't take offense at people saying that Peta is an extremest organization, because they are actually just that. It's an organization dedicated to educating as many people as they can about many aspects of eating animals, eating animal produced foods, animal abuse, using animal products, and using animal tested products. Their approach is to put it in your face, and then you make your own choice. I think it takes that sometimes just for the awareness factor, as long as it's not violent. I think the majority of people who are members are rather like me, and are either completely vegan or vegetarian, and take my type of approach to things. Just my opinion on that is all.
I read where Geist warns us that this article is all in fun and sarcasm ahead, so that's exactly how I take it, and my comments here are not meant to be taken as me having a problem with him posting a sarcastic article. I just thought it was a chance for me to make a few comments about my own feelings about meat eating.
If possible, I would like it very much if people would take a few moments to read over a particularly disturbing article about "downed cows". Here's the addy: http://www.goveg.com/pdfs/adHil.pdf
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The Screams !!!
by Geist (tattooedslacker@yahoo.com)
on Mar 13, 2003 - 10:20 PM
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One thing i hear a lot if vegtables don't scream. Well thats complete BULLSHIT !!! Watch a freakin Veggie Tales video... the horrible, awful screams of Bob the tomato and Larryboy are enough to make me give up eating all together.
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Re: The Screams !!! by Starlight (elenmea@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 12:05 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.geocities.com/nony_one/index.html | You know what, that sort of reminded me about a book I read one time. It was called "Star Signs" I think...by Linda Goodman...I think...and it was about a lot of different mystical subjects and one of them was the extreme levels of vegetarianism. It talked about the first level being not eating red meat, then no meat, then no eggs, then no dairy, then no vegetables and only fruits (fruitarians), and finally ending up with no food of any kind...the breatharians...and mentioned a rumor of someone being on for several years. Now I have a hard time believing that, but it sort of made me think about the whole thing I'd heard about "geeze you eat the poor little vegetables and they can't even run to get away". *grinz* |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com)
on Mar 14, 2003 - 02:32 AM
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Geist, was this, perchance, brought up by my comment in the forum that nobody would ever be able to get me near an orgy, let alone an orgy in a tub of "fun flavor, over colored, cute cut shaped, massively sugared, jiggling vat of ground up hoof, bone, and cartilidge?"
LOL.
I know most of it was meant in sarcasm, as most your entries are, so I held off as best I could. I'm understanding your intention, and tho I may occasionally come off as an animal rights psychopath (which I am *cough cough* where'd that pipe bomb go....) my only goal has ever been to make people look the ugly bloody face of the animal products industry eye to eye, fact to fact, and then make an informed decision.
The problem is, most people don't want to see, don't want to think about it, don't want to know, don't WANT to care. That, above all, is what I find disgusting. I've told people about the facts of the animal products industry, and they were flippant and "oh it's not THAT bad"...but then they were showed a tape of what goes on, and they had the same look on their faces that german civilians had when they were shuffled through post war concentration camps. Guilt stricken horror. Because they KNEW...the just didn't want to believe.
Now, to exercise my point as the resident closet eco-terrorist/vegan posterchild, bear with me and either ignore me past this point or read on and just deal with what I got on this issue. This will be lengthy, but to any that read it, it's not my typical "bleeding heart" tirade, but an attempt to debunk typical myths:
"Animals are dumb, that's why we can eat them"~ a quote for you "the question is not can they reason, but can they FEEL"~too lazy to look up the author~
Animals are not dumb, they simply function on a different level that humans do. They know pain, suffering, hunger, sadness, happiness, can identify their own offspring and members of their herd and species, as well as their "territory". Visit a typical meat industry plant and listen to the bellows of a cow who's just had her newborn calf taken away before she's even allowed to touch it. She'll bellow for days, and it's a sad, sad sound. Of course she doesn't understand that her infant is being sent to a veal factory, or what a veal factory is, or why her infant was taken in the first place, but she knows the heartache of it all.
"Humans are carnivores, look at our teeth. We wouldn't have canine teeth if we weren't meant to eat meat"~ Silver back gorillas have, by size/body ratio, the largest canine teeth in the animal world....they are also massive in size, and closely genetically and intellectually related to humans. They subsist solely on a diet of vegetation and roots and fruit. Those big gnarly canines, to which ours are embarassingly inadequate by comparison, exist for the sole purpose of tearing through NOT MEAT, NOT BONE, but tougher vegetation such as hearty saplings and tuber plants. Those big, mean, ghastly, OBVIOUSLY MEAT EATIN LOOKIN canines are for the processing of vegetable matter. These vegetarians are also one of the most gentle and reasonable animals on earth.
"You don't have a problem with wild carnivores killing other animals, so why's it different with us?"~ Uhm, animals in the wild have a fighting chance at survival, and before they are brought down to feed the foodchain, they are living in a natural state. They are free, which has it's advantages and risks, but they are free. Being born into slavery for the certain and ultimate future of slaughter and dismemberment leaves you the fighting chance of an accountant in an ultimate fighting ring with "Mac the Murderer".
"I grew up on a farm and WE didn't torture our animals"~ Good for you! I know Maranda_Jade discussed this with me at one time (and thank you for giving veganism a whack. You reek of true open-mindedness, even if it didn't work out *g
Read the rest of this comment...
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 08:23 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Bravo Bettie. This is one of your most reasonable and persuasive posts on this subject. As far as farm raised meat goes, its in an entirely different class of quality than factory meat. It tastes different. And I used to eat it raw. Preferred it that way, even though my mother would yell at me for cutting thin, raw slices of meat and eating it off of everything I cooked. It tasted right and made me feel strong and energetic. I never got sick from it, although there's no way I would try that with a package of meat I got from a grocery store. The meat gets nasty from the production practices so its not fit to eat raw. Even now, if I'm at a good restaraunt that I hope is buying quality meat, I'll order my steak as rare as I can get it.
I agree wholeheartedly about milk. I've had to explain to my kids' doctors over and over why I don't give them milk, and they tell me that my kids aren't going to be healthy if I don't give them milk. I nod and smile and keep feeding my kids right. My sister's kid is the same age as my oldest, 9, and already starting to develop breasts because (I suspect) of drinking the school milk and other milk all the time. We use milk on cereal, not much... in baking a bit, and all other dairy products are extra "treat" things that are eaten sparingly because I know its bad for you. Cheese, ice cream, pudding and yogurt are all very yummy, though. :-( So dairy products if used, are used lightly and I keep trying to cut back on them. Cheese is a guilty pleasure.
Food dyes... *shudder* After seeing firsthand what Kool-Aid did to my kids and their personalities and behaviour patterns, I looked into the food dye industry. Nasty, scary stuff. It's sickening what they put into food to give it a cute, kid-friendly color. I try to buy food without colors as much as possible, even "natural colors" Ground up bugs is still natural, and that's where a natural red food dye comes from. Beetles.
Tofu can be made at home using purely organic soybeans and a good food processor/blender type thingy and a bit of cheesecloth. and you get soymilk out of the process. No chemicals at all unless you put them there yourself. And if you squish it really firm and marinate it, it will taste just like chicken, texture and all. I would be able to live on it, but I do have a real need for good, solid red meat or I will get really sick and pass out, iron pills or no.
I thought I was gonna die when I tried veganism. After about two weeks of no meat I started feeling extremely hungry no matter what I ate and I had no energy and had a continuous very bad headache and I was dizzy and light headed and had to struggle to keep from passing out whenever I stood up. When I broke down and got a hamburger, you would have thought I was a junkie with a syringe full of heroin. I inhaled that thing and wanted more. I felt like it was the first time I had eaten in months instead of two weeks. I halfheartedly tried to stick with the vegan diet for about another week or two, eating meat whenever I felt sick and finally gave it up. I was jittery and bad-tempered because I was hungry all the time. Some people really do need to eat meat, and there's no real good substitute for these people.
You wanna hear what's really bad for you, try sugar. We eat more sugar than humans have ever eaten before. We eat genetically enhanced, super-sweet fruits and vegetables that have more sugar content than fruit had just 100 years ago. We eat sugar in everything, we're addicted to it. Ask a person which they would give up first, dairy, meat or sugar and you can bet that nobody will pick sugar as their first choice. That's why we have diabetes, heart disease, cancer and all kinds of stuff that humans didn't have to bother with for millenia. As far as it being a health question goes, I'd much rather eat meat than sugar. (although I do have a sugar addiction that I keep trying to shake. It's worse than liquor or cigarettes. Take my booze and smokes, but leave me my candy!
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:16 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Bravo girl! ANd as I've state a ZILLION times before....you and others that grew up on actual family farms, that eat meat, understand where meat comes from, and give your "food" a quality of life is what makes it more of an actual "food chain" than the mass production factory farms that are putting good natured family farms, who have a respect for the land and the animals they raise, out of business. Everyone will suffer for that.
And thanks to you I've been searching labels for dyes as well *lol*
I am the first to admit that veganism does NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE. There are people that absolutely NEED *SOME* animal protein in their diet. It doesn't mean they should live off meat, it just means that they are supposed to eat enough to keep them healthy and feeling well.
As for milk, I'm glad you at least can stick to that side of it, because it is FAR more damaging to the body than meat. Meat is grody, but MILK CONTAINS HORMONES with or without hormone shots given to the cows to make them produce more. And it is so forced as a building block for nutrition, and the doctors are wrong, and refuse to admit that they are. THere is SO much more calcium in one cup of greens of any sort than there is in a glass of milk, it's more readibly digestible, easier to process, and easily absorbed.
I tried so very hard to be reasonable and set aside my "issues" to write that post, I'm glad I came off like I was trying so hard to do :P
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by KatB on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:27 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.magicka.net | *Standing ovations* - to both of you. Glad you brought up the sugar issue too.
If I ever have kids I'll pay you both to tutor them!
Just remembered how lucky I was to discover Shmeng.com... |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:22 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | *snort* I know I know, I just haven't been messin around here regularly and I was biding my time :P
Soy ice cream RULES MY WORLD.
AND I made vegan chocolate chip cookies!
Believe me I was vegan before it was "fun" (ie: all those fantastic new animal free concoctions they have at the store now ...mmmm...) and now...jeebus it's like I"m not even vegan anymore because I get everything I had before!
I just have to make sure not to go overboard on my baking compulsion...or I'll not be a healthy girl much longer! |
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Well holy shit....
by Geist (tattooedslacker@yahoo.com)
on Mar 14, 2003 - 04:16 AM
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Hey Bettie, don't hold nuthin back for my sake. What I meant by sarcasam ahead is that this article is NOT how I feel, exactally the opposite. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, the world would just be too damn boring if they did. Besides you can't all be right like me :P Even if ya don't agree with me post whateva ya gotta say. And screw em all if the don't like it :)
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Re: Well holy shit.... by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:27 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | I know :) Besides, who wants to listen to a screaming maniac? Sure it's fun at first, but it totally obliterates the good intentions and ideals the screaming maniac is trying to bring across. Dont' get me wrong, beign a screaming maniac is fun sometimes....but it doesn't always do the job.
The only person I'm really a screaming maniac about this issue with is my boss, because he thinks its funny to set me off :) |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by callei on Mar 14, 2003 - 04:39 AM
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I thought humans were scavangers by digestive track, not meant to eat fresh meat, but rather to gnaw bones.
And for the record, red meat does "cause" more deaths than drunk driving and smoking and illegal drug use (not its related crimes but ODing) all rolled into one cemetary plot.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:35 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | right on! But it TASTES much better than the glass your head goes through when you're hit by a drunk, and we all know how precious and in what high esteem the tastebuds are held.
Funny thing is, meat and such tastes liek CRAP when you haven't eaten it in a while.
It's a slow kill. I read a short story once about a hunter and a deer, called something like "the slow revenge". Hunter sees deer, deer sees hunter, hunter blows it's head off, takes it home, butchers it, cooks it, and it goes something like " he forked a mouthful of the tender, heavily marbled meat, swallowed, and the deer began it's own, slow revenge" ie: slowly killing the hunter with it's body fat and the red meat. Or soemthing. Bah, I hope you get it.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Shade (Shade@Gothcult.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 04:53 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.hotelshade.com | I have to disagree with you there Bettie dahlink, I have gone for good year long periods with zero meat and then had a burger or steak or something (Real meat not mcDolnalds Soy burger fried in beef fat) and it still tastes damn good. This is completely my opinion, but I think alot of the arguments based on the flavour of meat being icky to people who've broken the chemical dependancy is psychological. To me, eating meat just means I drink a few extra glasses of pineapple juice and have a bran muffin to speed it on its way out of my system, but to a moral vegetarian/vegan it's eating the screaming bloody murder of a thousand beasties. Repeat, this is totally my opinion. I do think a part of the nasty flavour is based on the mind though. That and perhaps preparation. :) |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 11:41 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Well, it was from Taco Hell (tm) so I imagine it was pretty much from preparation *snort*
Hmmm psychological you may be onto something, because I was a total burger girl growing up, LOVED meat in every form, and I tell you I bit into that burrito and almost lost MY burritos all over my car! I didn't hear screaming beasties, unfortunately, but GADS I thought I was gonna PUKE!
I know some vegetarians that don't give a flyin hoohoo about the animals, they just stopped eating meat for health reasons, and after a month of NOT eating it, the smell even made them sick, even tho they would lament "I wish I had a steak right now..."
Bizarre, but something to think about.
Have fun with your pineapples and bran, and you better take a good book into the throne room with ya *lol* |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by KatB on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:41 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.magicka.net | Well, i was only spealing for myself, and I am pretty assured that the little meat i eat is less harmful to ME than the amount of alcohol and nicotine I abuse :-) |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com)
on Mar 14, 2003 - 10:11 AM
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Does that cover abortion too?
After all, you're 100 times safer with a drunk stranger than with your own mother..
*stirs that big ole' pot of trouble.*
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 03:42 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Well you're not safe with your own mother nowadays whether you're unborn or almost an adult. Because everyone's gone crazy.
I will be serious here, and I don't agree with abortion, dont' know if I would have one myself if it came to it, but that my friend is a WHOLE NOTHER ISSUE.
Vegans tend to be not "anti-choice" but anti-abortion, as in they aren't going to tell anyone else what to do, but wouldn't do it themselves and don't like the idea of it. Most of them choose, actually to NOT have children at ALL. Most vegans that I know have no children, and do not want to have children, and are either get "fixed" or are planning to, or use other methods. I have no kids, I plan to have ONE and ONLY one and they will be raised vegan. I don't need more than one child...hell I dont' need ANY (but that again is a whole nother issue). Beh.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Schizo (Aranea@spidersdance.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 08:08 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | It's nice to hear you say that, Bettie, because I know it tends to be an unpopular opinion, and I've been kind of nervous to voice it.
My baby was my baby from the moment she was conceived. That's why I resented it so much when my boyfriend's ex told me she hoped I would lose it. To me, it was tantamount to me telling her I hoped her kids would die.
Yet, I'm not going to tell anyone else what to do. If asked for my opinion, I would tell them what I believe about unborn children, what I have seen about how the one abortion I've known closely twisted the girl who had it, and how I think adoption is a better answer. But only if asked. And if my advice is rejected, I would not lay on any guilt trips.
After all, the moral objections to abortion hinge almost completely on when life begins. And who can accurately define life? Science has it's definition, but science is not trying to tell right from wrong, just to define it's terms for clarity's sake.
And I have lived on farms, and eaten animals I have known. I'm actually considering becoming a very unstrict vegetarian, mainly because the huge quantities of ground beef that my boyfriend seems to think is necessary to sustain life (he's not an omnivore, he's a carnivore, plain and simple!) are giving me tummy-aches.
But then again, I can't give up my extra-crispy chicken wings from KFC. However unhealthy they may be. They're just WAAAAAY too yummy!
Anyway, I see the point of veganism, and I highly respect all who care that much about the torture that animals bred for food go through. However, I don't have enough energy to take up any cause like that. Raising a child and working full time and trying to keep a healthy relationship with someone I really only see on the weekends is taking up ALL my available energy! Maybe in my next life... |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 11:46 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Well comedian started it technically :)
But then again I'm not one to face anything down. I TOTALLY support the "right to choose" just as I support people's "right to choose to eat meat". I opt to not have babies I intend to kill, and not support an industry who's basis is murder. I have a friend that is a 100% Pro Choice girl. She got pregnant, and when I asked her what she was going to "do", she said "well I'm gonna be someone's mom so I better suck it up and start gettin ready".
The confusion in the matter is that people confuse "pro choice" with "pro abortion". I"m not for abortions. Abortions are sad. But I'm not going to tell anyone what to do with their bodies. I AM sick of people using it as fucking birth control. That disgusts me. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 04:55 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | Heheh. Thing is, I believe all things in this world are alive. After all, the nucleus of any cell contains all the genetic information of the entire body.. Stem cell research is just tapping the atoms of the individual parts of the body to see which part of the genetic code the nucleas accessed to create an arm, a leaf, or whatever. Even Nucleii have brains, so that means... |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 14, 2003 - 11:52 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | When they can prove to me that single cell organisms have complex nervous systems that can register pain and cause suffering, I can guarantee you that I will put a bullet in my own head and remove myself from this horrible, brutal, ecosystem.
Until then, I do what I can to minimize my personal impact on a suffering planet.
There is a sect in India, you know, that are the most strict vegans on the face of the earth. They eat but a few things, and are not allowed to grow or harvest it themselves, as that would be their hands causing trauma to the earth, a living thing, and to the plants, a living thing, so they are subsisting by allowing others to do the "murders" and "abusing" for them...sort of removing yourself by proxy, lessening your impact so to say. Every grain of rice and wheat and such is gone through by hand to search and remove the tiny insects that call it home so none may be suffered the grain mill.
They walk with gauze face masks to protect any hapless insect from being sucked into their noses, mouths, or eyes, and walk very slowly and carefully, sweeping their steps as they progress to gently brush aside any insects or things they might trod on. All day long "sweepers" collect these sidewalk sweepings of insects and food and whatnot, and they are deposited into a sacred tomb where they can live out their bug lives with plenty of food and room and air to do their bug thing.
Now THAT is what I call "vegan". |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 15, 2003 - 02:32 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Uh, I think everyone is more than well aware of that. I don't even see anyone bickering, all I see is a big fat healthy discussion going on about whether or not meat is bad. Hell, nobody's even pissy or freaking out.
I think everyone is dealing just fine. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com)
on Mar 15, 2003 - 11:50 PM
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Oh man, just got through a large pepperoni pizza. Man. It feels so good to be so bad.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 16, 2003 - 02:39 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | That's funny, I had vegan garlic cheese bread and pizza sauce last night....
mmm...feels so good...to be so good...
Only problem with vegan cheese is that it sticks like glue to EVERYTHING IT COMES IN CONTACT WITH. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com) on Mar 16, 2003 - 03:39 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | We got this place in town, and I swear to god, they have the best pizza sauce I've ever tasted. Any topping on the pizza, even the crust, simply plays second fiddle to the amazing culinary experience that is the sauce. Subtle hints of slightly burnt tomato, basil, hints of olive oil and rich, fresh tomatoes. My god. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 18, 2003 - 02:03 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | I would pay through the nose for good pizza sauce. Pizza Hut is pretty fuckin good, and people wonder HOW could I eat cheese-less pizza...it's all about the sauce...mmmm....
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 18, 2003 - 09:34 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Does too. Depends on the brand you find. (there are some brands that positively SUCK)
And I'd rather eat something that SORT of tastes like cheese made of soy than cultured body fluids. Bleh.
I'll take my sticky "sort of" cheese ANY day. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Closetgothbabe on Mar 16, 2003 - 11:54 AM
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I am a meat eater, but I do love my fruits and veggies more than meat. Years ago when I was living in Georgia, I heard of a some job openings at this chicken factory of sorts. The pay was incredible for it to be such a small town and the benefits were also really good. I needed a job and so did my best friend-mother in law. We both went and applied and both got the job on the same shift. We get there our first day and here comes this big semi with all these cages driving up to the place with all these chickens crammed into these small cages..poor things. Of course my love for animals kicks in and I start feeling really bad for these chickens cause I know where they are going.
We get into the factory and start working. I was placed up on this big long platform with another lady that was supposed to show me what I was to do. There are these hooks that they hang them from (this is after the killing them part and I mean right after). Below us is this stream of water that when they throw the unwanted parts down into. I am standing there looking down at this stream of I dunno I was trying to figure out what all this was, I started to feel really sick. I must have run to the bathroom like 5 or 6 times at least (ran into my mother in law in there getting sick a couple of times). This all made me sick, not only that it was gross but the thought of what was going on and I didnt feel right about it at all.
There was some chickens that came by that there wings were broken in half, so I asked the lady next to me why there wings were broken like this. She told me why, and this still breaks my heart. When the guys in the back are pulling the chickens outta the cage to hang them on this thing the chickens will try to spur them or something. When they do get the guys (yay go little chickens...wish they would have clawed there eyes out) it pisses them off and they slam them on the hanging hooks by there wings while still alive!!!! This was it for me, I walked out after only 5 hours of working and quit, so did my mother in law.
The only reason I am telling this is cause I do eat meat but the way they do this is just not right at all!!! I couldnt eat meat for about a year or more after that. I still eat meat but not as much, the taste has never been the same and I know its just a mental thing for me but I cant see hurting animals this way. On farms its so different, I grew up on a farm with my grandparents. We didnt eat our chickens though cause we had laying hens so it was only the eggs we wanted. We got our meat from other people that raised livestock there and they got veggies from us. I dont know if I could become a vegatarian or not but when I do eat meat I dont eat alot of it. When I was growing up thats just how we ate....lots of differnt vegatables and just a little piece of meat ::shrugs:: it suits me fine cause I love my vegtables.
I respect other people in there decisions on this and it doesnt bother me either way. Bettie and I have talked about it before, she has never freaked cause I eat meat...hehe.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by Schizo (Aranea@spidersdance.com) on Mar 17, 2003 - 06:03 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | That's probably how a lot of those horrible people are made - they start at a job like that, feel sick, but just suck it down and keep at it, and eventually they go numb because they have to to survive.
They hate their job and they hate themselves deep down inside, and they take out the hate and frustration on the poor innocent animals that just want to survive.
It's almost as sad as it's sick. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Mar 18, 2003 - 02:10 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Why on earth would I freak on you over that? I dislike meat, I hate the fact that people eat it, but the part of you that eats meat doesn't make the person. If you changed, I'd do a fucking happy dance of unbelieveable porportions, but I don't expect anyone to change for me. I don't have many vegan friends, and NO vegetarians in my family whatsoever. I don't love them any less. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by VladII (vladII@seznam.cz)
on Mar 18, 2003 - 06:12 AM
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yeah, you are right. meat is not murder, MEAT IS DINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Careful what you chomp
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com)
on Mar 18, 2003 - 07:49 AM
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You must be most careful in Korea when eating meat. I have had the unpleasant experience of having walked through several Korean markets where you could find nicely butchered and cleaned dog on one corner, and on the other buggies full of buggies (silkworm larva). Both of which turn my nose if not my stomach. I'm a vegetarian by choice, usally because no one else is going that way, but thank the good gods I'm veggie in Korea. It is so easy to just say, no meat, instead of trying to explain why I don't want Fido for dinner.
To dispel a myth though, eating dog is not that common in Korea. It is primarily done on traditional holidays and for the most part considered only suitable for very low class Koreans. This does not stop people from selling it on occasion though.
Either way. Very amusing Geist. Cheers.
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Re: Careful what you chomp by IamSquid (undisclosed) on Mar 19, 2003 - 01:35 AM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | What makes dog unfit for eating? How is it different from eating, let's say, pig? |
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Re: Careful what you chomp by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 06, 2003 - 09:32 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Well, because they're PETS! DUH! Little fuzzy wuzzy wuvvins that do cute little doggie things when we tell them to, they're not FOOD, they're ANIMALS! That'd just be CRUEL and INHUMANE!! ...right? |
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Re: Careful what you chomp by Mara (maraisgod@yahoo.com) on Apr 06, 2003 - 11:18 PM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | but bettie people keep pigs as pets too and when clean they're pretty dame cute |
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Re: Careful what you chomp by IamSquid (undisclosed) on Apr 07, 2003 - 12:12 PM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | yeah and when the piglets and little baby aligators and whatever else flavor-of-the-week pets get too big, mommy and daddy have them "removed" cause like, yoo know, life is disposable and stuff! Weeeeeeeee!!! |
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Veganize Mee
by IamSquid (undisclosed)
on Mar 19, 2003 - 01:28 AM
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Yoo know, I was considering going vegan. I tired once many years ago but going over this discussion really makes mee think about it again (especially considering it's been a month since I've had a refigerator because THREE refrgierators broke down on mee the month before that so I've grown used to not having dairy products).
How does an aspiring young vegetarian learn to go without animal products? (although I will still continue to devour humans mericilessly)
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by Abbadon on Apr 06, 2003 - 08:12 AM
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Has anybody ever read Darwin?
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals by callei on Apr 06, 2003 - 07:03 PM (User info | Send a Message) http:// | That actually reflects on the parents fitness to breed. If this person manages to breed then we can worry about Darwinism. |
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by angelsnot (TaraDelancey@hotmail.com)
on Nov 13, 2003 - 10:14 AM
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Thank god you put that out, I completely agree. I love steak and hotdogs, and chicken wings too much to ever consider going veg. They just taste too good, and I really don't care that they come from another earthly creature.
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Re: Why We Should Eat Animals
by fireflyer (-)
on Nov 01, 2004 - 02:52 PM
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why not eat animals? if we can catch 'em and kill 'em, why not eat 'em? survival of the fittest or whatever. and oh yeah- eat your vegetables or no dessert.
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