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| Articles: Spiritual mistake |
Posted by
Poison on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 11:13 AM PST
This was an e-mail I got as a result of posting something about my religious belief:
But first off he said he'd pray for my soul because it can still be saved(...)
"My opinion? I think you had some serious issues in your childhood. How can you be an atheist?Do you think that all you have, you gained through your own forces??? Don't you realize you're meaningless???? Now I'll try to describe you.Tell me if I'm wrong. In my opinion you're a girl, you're aproximatly 17 years old, I was very sure you were from Romania before I wrote you......You're from Transilvania, you've had some serious issues. I can't think of anything more at the moment, but I want to ask you. DID YOU EVER TRY TO BELIEVE??? IF NOT, WHAT DO YOU LIVE FOR????????"
This is what I replyed:
"Okay, Father, now it's my turn to answer. I have so much to say, I honestly don't know where to start. Let's take it from the top, shall we?
I had some serious issues as a child? Pardon me, but that is such a load of crap. What, now, because I don't believe in god, I had to have something awful happen to me?! Oh... Wrong, I grew up in a healthy enviroment, with both parents, who are still together, with the unconditional love of my grandparents and the company of my sister and the pets I've went through during the years. I had a happy childhood.
How can I be an atheist? That's easy, christian. What, you've never heard about exercising your own opinion? I'm sorry, but believeing something just because someone said it, or worse, because it's written in some book (that, no doubt, was written by Humans, in the first place) is unacceptable and strongly denots serious confrmity and stupidity. Asking questions about what you don't understand is a good thing! And being told "god works in misterious ways" is not a valid answer.
Do I think that all I have, I've gained through my own forces? Well, I take it that "all I have" means my knowledge, so the answer is obvious. NO DUH! of course I gained it on my own. How else? Nobody put the books in my hands and a gun to my head telling me to read them, etc. What do you think? That all I know god taught me? Guess what? I've never seen your god, nor heard or felt his presence. I don't know any god.
I'm meaningless? In god's plan, correct? Fine, maybe I am meaningless, after all, the world has thousands of millions of people, but at least I have the curage to maintain my opinion high and strong and the arguments to support it. And I'll bett you think humbleness gives you some meaning, doesn't it?
In all of this you got two things right: I am indeed 17 and a girl. But where did you get the idea that I'm from Transilvania? What's that got to do with anything? I suppose that you think I'm obsessed with that everlasting transilvanian vampyre mith, don't you? Well, guess again. If you'd bother to read my site, you'd know I live, and always have lived in the capital, Bucharest.
And again I had some serious issues...now this is becoming really annoying. Who do you think you are? What gives YOU the right to label atheists as lunatics???
You can't think of anything at the moment? Try forever, you aparently Can't Think.
Did I ever try to believe? Believe it or not, my dear, I was born into an orthodox familly. Like so many others, I wasn't given the oportunity to choose. I was just taught to believe. As simple as that. I even used to pray before going to sleep (this happened when I was about 4 or 5). I guess it was mechanical, I didn't really believe for myself, I simply believed my gradfather. Until I was old enough to realize the mistakes, the not so valid explanations and the really far-fetched lies, which are so obvious, people! I asked. I asked about what I didn't understand, but nobody could answer. That's when I started to think that it was all a bunch of lies. And I haven't had some tragic incident change my perception, I simply grew out of believing other peoples opinions and developing my own.
Now for the last statement, the "best" one yet. If not for god, then what do I live for?Now this is just pathetic. I'm serious. What else could I live for? How about art, and beauty, and knowledge, and pleasure??? Does that answer your question? Why shouldn't I enjoy life as it is? I'm sorry that your belief limits the beautys of life for you, I really am. But, that's your choice, and yours alone.
I think that pretty much sums up all I had to say.
Please don't take this personally as I'm not trying to criticize anything, I'm just replying to this message. My opinion. My belief. And to you, Father, or whatever you are, be sure that not anything you could say can change what I think. And be warned that I am not shy, or missing a personality, or scared of your god. You do whatever you want, and I'll do the same."
Of course I never got another mail from him.
It never ceases to amaze me what some people can think up and how blind they are. This guy was by far the most ignorant I've ever encountered.
I'm scared of the world and the poeple in it.
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| Spiritual mistake | Login/Create an account | 19 Comments |
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Re: Spiritual mistake
by Ice_Age on Jan 02, 2002 - 11:26 AM
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Christians scare me. I attempted to enter into a correspondence with some mad old bible bashing bigot once. I tried my hardest to be reasonable and keep my personal feelings towards religion out of it, but straight away, he gave me the whole "praying that I see Jesus as the one true light" shtick. People who believe in god really really are insane. In our local paper, every single week, there's letters from a mad old vicar who loves to go on about how much better England was when we were all Christians and there were no foreigners or atheists or gay people or muslims or people with opinions, etcetera. Sorry about the anti religion missive, thought it might be vaguely relevant.
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Re: Spiritual mistake
by Anonymous-Coward on Jan 02, 2002 - 12:17 PM
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And people wonder why there are athiests...
I'd rather just be agnostic... There's really no way to tell, you know? He could be, or there's also 5o% chance he's not... So I just go the middle road. Its better. The grass is greener, from my perspective.
But what does it matter? As long as you're not killing people.
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Two sides to every coin...
by Anonymous-Coward on Jan 02, 2002 - 01:08 PM
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Just remember, it's as incomprehensible to them why there are atheists as it is to you why they are christian.
The single reason religion is a growth market is because of misunderstanding.
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Things I've noticed....
by Maranda (saboneta@aol.com)
on Jan 02, 2002 - 01:47 PM
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Don't bother arguing with bigots. It's hopeless. By insulting them you only confirm the worst suspicions they have about you.
If I've learned one thing in fifteen years as a practicing Wiccan, it is that you can stare right through a person's deepest insecurities by listening to what soapboxes they preach from. There are many belief systems in the world, and all have their merits. Not just religious systems, but those relating to politics, sexuality, music, drugs, philosophy, you name it.
When someone makes it his or her life's work to SCREAM FROM THE TOP OF THE HILLS about how he or she is RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT, you can be sure that he or she is VERY insecure about those bullhorn-shouted beliefs. Why else would getting others to agree with them mean so much to their fragile worlds?
Whether their beliefs involve Christianity, racism, drug legalization, the right to smoke in public. the superiority of classical music or the sinful nature of anal sex, you can be sure that under that bigoted exterior lies misery and doubt.
The way to win with these people is to refuse them an audience, until they have to confront themselves in the mirror of their warped existence because nobody's left to listen to them.
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Re: Things I've noticed....
by Arthegarn on Jan 02, 2002 - 02:06 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | I agree completely. 100% |
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The resident Catholic's personal rant
by Arthegarn on Jan 02, 2002 - 02:03 PM
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We miss you, Schizo, Sweetie, I hope you and your baby are doing well (and pray for it quite often)!
Well, let's get on to it.
I'd really wish that some so-called Christians went dumb. Holy shit! It's difficult enough to have a "conventional" religion without them! Whenever you talk about religion with someone for the first time, you always have to start by proving that you are not some church-ridden, guilt-obsessed, i-can't accept-my-own-mortality-so-I-take-solace-in religion dumbass. And after that you have to prove that you are not a new branch of the Inquisition, trying to convert everyone or else turn them as cast-out-of-light-undead either! And in Spain, with all that Inquisition and Franco crap around us, is even worse!
It's fascinating how this "father" of yours has taken the virtue of humbleness and perverted it into the worst of prides. He starts by saying men are meaningless (I'd bet that "you" was impersonal) and then he acts like he is in the posession of the Absolute Truth! The guy is a fanatic! And playing the prophet nonetheless!
I understand what he means when he asks about if you ever tried to believe. For people with a spiritual life, many of the people who live without it are... It's difficult to express. It's like if being in the presence of God gave you a different point of view of life and nature, like suddendly it all has sense and you feel God everywhere, in the rock, the tree. You are in peace with yourself and your surroundings and realize that your problems are not really that big. (OK, OK, I know that can be just a psychic placebo, but that's faith, isn't it? I choose to believe it's not a psychic placebo) In a sense you feel happy and complete, you realize that God is holding you in Hir arms that were always there open for you, you rest on Hir love, and wish that everyone colud feel the same. And when people don't you feel sorry for them because they remind you to yourself before the communion experience.
But from there to insulting people is a LOONG way. How dares he to tell anyone what to do or what to think? The best thing of all is that Jesus himself never did so, nor commanded any such thing. He sent the apostles to tell of the Good New, no to convert.
He asks you how can you be an atheist. Fascinating. Each and every person with what I would call a Faith (Christian or otherwise) came from atheism or from an atheist phase on his life. It is atheism that forces you to make certain questions, when you grow up and cast off your child's faith (which is more like a collection of easy answers and superstitions than a real faith to me), just as youn did. Otherwise, if you'd never been an atheist, much likely you still have a child's faith: absolutely irrational and, so, most fragile. Being aware of that fragility they tend to defend it against any attack with preemtive strikes.
My, my.
But hey, really, all of you, I promise there is still a bunch of us Christians (even gothic christians) who follow the "he who is not against Me, is with Me" line. Actually, it's most of us. The problem is that there are SO many people who call themselves Christians and have never given a seond thought to religion (it takes a lot of thinking to have a religion, even if that is believing in no religion) that Christianity is dilluded. Once again, what's in for prejudice? Please don't condemn us all as a group. We are not "really, really insane"
Arthegarn
PS And if you do... YOU'LL BURN IN THE ETERNAL FIRES OF HELL! HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW! (insert evil laugh here)
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Re: The resident Catholic's personal rant
by oohp (oohp@gotik.nu) on Jan 03, 2002 - 01:27 AM
(User info | Send a Message) http://thorns.wox.org | > Each and every person with what I would call a Faith (Christian or otherwise) came from atheism or from an atheist phase on his life.
Yup, I have to agree with you. I was an atheist before something happened (I really forgot what, isn't that strange enough?) which made me reconsider. |
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Re: The resident Catholic's personal rant
by magikhawke on Jan 03, 2002 - 06:53 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://pierced-sanity.net | | i really agree. in fact, i also started as an atheist or more of a non-religist. i kinda believed in something but i wasn't quite old enough to define it. But i'm certainly glad to see there are still people like you. i quite enjoyed your rant and i wouldn't mind having a friendly decision about religion if u have the time. |
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Re: The resident Catholic's personal rant
by Schizo on Jan 06, 2002 - 01:30 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | Hi there, Arthegarn! Baby and I are both doing great, thanks! (Heard the heart beat on my last check-up, and burst out laughing while the microphone was still on me!)
Good points, sir! While it is understandable, and also right, to beware of a group that has consistently bashed and berated you, it is also wise to understand that these may merely be the insane and deranged and unbalanced members of the group, and there may be many sane and balanced people there who are very worth knowing. So yes, keep your guard up, but please be willing to see the worth of those people who haven't yet begun to bash.
I get it from all sides now, seeing that I am a hybrid of Christianity and Wicca (and who knows what else before I'm done). And what's odd is to hear my mother telling me things I used to believe myself, and realizing how stupid and uninformed they are. So many people have been taught to fear things that have been put under certain labels, such as magic, Satanism, atheism, etc., that in fact are very different from what those labels actually cover. My mother would hear the word "Witch" and think "evil woman casting horrible spells on people and consorting with demons." When in fact what any witch worth its salt does is merely another form of prayer. What a Christian does every day is merely magic under a different name, without the trappings of candles, herbs, etc. that often goes along with spells and things.
When dealing with a wrongly trained Christian, it is often wise to make sure you have the same definitions for the same words. If necessary, learn their words for what you are really doing, and use those so as to avoid initial confusion. That is, if you really want to communicate with that sort of Christian. I don't blame you at all if you don't. I left the church to avoid those people. I would rather associate with people who think, and end up disagreeing with me, then associate with robots who take what they are programmed and just run with it. But if you DO try to talk to a programmed Christian, and say that you are a witch or a satanist or an atheist, you have already closed any real communication that may happen, and you may as well stop right then, because anything that is said after that will be absolutely pointless.
It's sad, but that's the way it is. But some of us DO think, and we really are worth getting to know, if you can discover who we are. |
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Satanism
by Arthegarn on Jan 07, 2002 - 02:27 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | Mph. Beware of Satanism. Ok, ok, I know that modern "Satanism" is something else, I have many friends who are "satanists" including a priest from the CoS in Madrid. But... sorry, I don't believe that to be satanism. It's not from an ethimological (holy s**t I hate these words, I hope it's written thus) sense: Satan means "the enemy" or "the adversary", satanism in the strict sense is only the devotion to Lucifer. And there is such a thing as that, a worship of Evil, I really do know. And it's not funny at all.
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Re: Satanism
by Schizo on Jan 15, 2002 - 05:49 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | Yeah, there's Satanism and Satanism, I know. Anyone who worships the embodiment of evil is someone to be avoided like the plague. But the Satanism that is the humanistic philosophy that we have come across here and there on this website is a horse of a completely different color. It's unfortunate that the two things share the same term. And still more unfortunate that some people refuse to hear that there ARE two separate groups there. It's a sad display of fearful closed-mindedness. I think, though, that generally, a short time observing someone who calls themselves a Satanist will reveal to which school of thought they belong. |
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Re: Spiritual mistake
by oohp (oohp@gotik.nu)
on Jan 03, 2002 - 01:07 AM
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Those kinds of mails don't deserve an answer. You just send them into oblivion and press del. There is no right way. You believe in whatever you like to believe, be it God, Odin, Zamolxis, oneself or something else.
I am Greek-Catholic Christian, but I don't go to church (yup, makes me feel I'm constantly brainwashed somehow) and I don't tell other people what to believe in. Oh yes and I am from Transylvania. Does that make me a vampire? No. A satanist? No. So I don't really see the point of your Christian bigot.
And why in Niflhel am I always being labelled a satanist if I listen to black metal or try to take a nap in the cemetery?
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Re: Spiritual mistake
by whitedove (jaroddove@doveworksentertainment.com)
on Jan 03, 2002 - 06:48 AM
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Since we are on the topic of religion - I am from a different religion; one that I have created - it is somewhat "Posthumanism" mixed with Primitive beliefs. Do I believe there is a God? Perhaps, at times; is he the God of the Christian faith? No. Not even close. Now, as for something I do believe - truth. Christianity doesn't offer much truth at all. There is no way to verify these "only in biblical times" miracles. Must have been back when their so called God had power... If Moses parted the Red Sea so that he could free the slaves of Egypt it would be recorded in things other than the Bible. The Egyptians do not talk about "Some guy 'who used to be the pharoh's son' came and took all the slaves after we had a 'Hell-week' of many disasters." Do I say the bible is wrong though? There are things I'm sure that are true, simple things, possible things. As for all the fables and fairy tales about a God's power and wonderfulness that just simply stopped after some human wrote the last book of the New Testiment, it is just too hard to believe.
I will not go any further on religion because I could write a book on it. What I believe is my own - I would never want to 'convert' someone to what I believe. What I believe is much greater than some 'holy-quest' to change people's minds and ways of life. Most people I talk to find they already believe what I believe anyway. It is all in our heads - all of us.
Remember there is a LIE in every "Believe" a Christian shouts at you.
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Idea
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com)
on Jan 03, 2002 - 10:15 AM
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I wouldnt even give him a big responce personally.
I would just say something simple like
"to each thier own"
Because he has his views and you have your own. and being Human.. you want to stick with your ideas and wants to stick with his. So i wouldnt even waste my breath.. theres no point.. (specially with a fellah like him)
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Brainwashed!
by Anonymous-Coward on Jan 03, 2002 - 10:49 AM
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Yeah and before you know it, he'll be telling you to join resist.com !
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Futile Endeavors
by Dolorosa on Jan 04, 2002 - 02:53 AM
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It's impossible to argue with the faithful...in any environment, although it's so difficult not to defend oneself. Pragmatism over personal cowardice is a decision not easily made.
My father is a zealot...I loathe conventional religions because of the things he said and did in the name of his little hebrew carpenter god. I decided to fall into the catagory of the totally absurd and told him I worshipped Zithromax the Wyrm of Eternal Darkness and Suffering...(consequently, you can by Zithromax in many drug stores and pharmacies). I thought it was hilarious...he didn't.
The Faithful carry firebrands...
I applaud your well written response to him...stand your ground, and never relent...because once you do, you just keep doing it...and then you become meek...and the meek become desperate...and the desperate take up firebrands to ward of the shadows they fear...and guess what that leads to...
Then again, what do I know? I start cults for fun.
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Re: Spiritual mistake
by feralucce on Jan 06, 2002 - 06:17 PM
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plyn...
romania... transyvania? what was he on about??? I am a little confused by that...
and I am amazed that everyone can say that someone's religious choice is ignorant... when they should pity him...
In 5 months you and I will be torturing the preechers harrassing the tarot readers once more...
Feral
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Re: Spiritual mistake
by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jan 27, 2002 - 03:33 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | | im here already being woken by the church bells, the door to door soul savers, and the rest of the 9 foot tall cross on wheels gang! i love this stuff. |
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