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| Mistress Manners: Relationships take work and knowledge |
Posted by
callei on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 12:07 AM PST
For those of you with time on your hands, an explorative mind, and are at least 18 years old (depending on your country or state), I would like to pose an "exercise". The purpose of the exercise is to offer you a chance to see some other ways of thinking about sexual relationships and get your questions voiced. I am not an "authority" and, to my knowledge, no one here has their clinical sexology degree or is a registered counselor or therapist of any state board. But some of us have been around a while and are willing to talk about it.
What I/We (speaking for the other members here) can offer is the chance to see what is out there and be accepted for questioning it. I won’t tell you one thing is more right than another. I won’t tell you that one thing is less right than another. I am just providing a set of ideas that you can look at, think about, and, hopefully, de-mystify in your own minds. http://www.xeromag.com/fvpoly.html http://www.master.webcentral.com.au/abis/undersub.html http://www.emory.edu/COLLEGE/HYBRIDVIGOR/issue1/mating.htm Here are three "types" of sex/relationship and all the articles are long and totally non-sexy, or at least mostly non-sexy. Questions: Why do you shy away from reading the whole thing?
Which one makes you "fight back" the most?
Which one made you doubt your views?
Which one made you think about your views?
Why do you think that (insert idea here) is "wrong"?
Why do you want to try (insert idea here)?
Which one makes you the most curious to learn more?
Which one makes you feel that you have learned more than you wanted?
What comes to mind first when you think back on what you have read?
Why are you answering these questions?
A few notes: I couldn’t find an article about monogamy that spoke about it as a sex/relationship style between people, only as one between a person and their god. If you can find one, I would love to read it. Please send it my way. I would really love to see any answers you come up with. I repeat that I will not judge you for them, whatever they may be. And yes, you can rant at me all you want. I may even write back. For those of you who wonder why there is no article about being "gay", that isn’t a sex/relationship style. It is a matter of partner style, not relationship style. Gay people have monogamous relationships, polyamorous relationships, and BDSM relationships. So why should I single out "gayness"?
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| Relationships take work and knowledge | Login/Create an account | 44 Comments |
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Re: Relationships take work and knowledge
by Ironboots on Sep 08, 2003 - 01:08 AM
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I initially shyed away from it (until I read the question about shying away... ;) because I was lazy and wanted to go to bed.
None of them really made me 'fight back' per se... I kinda got bored with the third one, but that was because of the more formal attitude taken compared to the first two.
The first one kinda made me doubt my view that I'm not cut out for polyamory. I'm an insecure, jealous person, but that article addressed it pretty well..
Again, the first article for reasons stated above.
I didn't really find any of them to be wrong...
I want to try being a submissive because that's what gets me off. (to put it bluntly), but its not because of any of the articles...
Curious to learn more? hmmm... probably the first polyamory one, since I don't really know a lot about it.
None of them taught me more than I cared.
Thinking back on what I've read, I realize: Monkeys sure are weird creatures.
I'm answering these questions because I'm the first to get to them, and I have plenty of free time.
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Re: Relationships take work and knowledge
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com)
on Sep 08, 2003 - 07:10 AM
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Maybe somebody could answer something for me:
If polyamory is not about competition or adequacy, and the second study sites that women are driven to seek pairings outside a monogamous relationship is because they desire to seek males of a higher quality for breeding, while males are simply wired to spread their genes as far as possible, is it possible for polygyny(Which I believe is the proper phrasing, as poly- is a greek prefix while the Gallic-Slave-Latin French is merely defined as 'interest' rather than love, in as which "amor" evolved in moorish spain shortly before, but I might be wrong) to not be at least partially influenced by questioning of adequacy in an open enviroment?
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Why poly didn't work for me...
by Britva (britva1066@yahoo.com)
on Sep 08, 2003 - 08:54 PM
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I agree with a lot of the things written in the article about polyamory. I'm all for exploring alternative relationship styles, and I think our society would be better as whole if everyone lightened up a little on who and how everybody loves.
That said, I'd like to talk about a couple of difficulties I found with polyamory that I don't think get discussed very often This is not meant to dissuade anyone from experimenting with polyamory or choosing it for themselves, rather, speaking as someone who has tried it and decided it wasn't for me (at least not at this point in my life) I'd like to toss my two cents in about the trials of a polyamorous relationship.
One problem, social pressure, gets brought up a lot, but I think people tend to underestimate it. Now I bet that most of you reading this are scoffing (hah! I flout at least three social conventions before breakfst!), and I'm with you. I, like most of the people on this site I'm guessing, get a preverse pleasure from going against social norms. And when your relationship is going fine, you hardly feel any social pressure at all... but when things get ugly.
If you try to talk to a non-poly friend about problems in your poly relationship, chances are their first reaction is going to be "Well, maybe this polyamory thing wasn't such a good idea." The bottom line is, because of the dominance of the monogamous ideal, it's easy for people (even the people involved) to see any problem in a poly relationship as something wrong with polyamory itself. I know quite a few people who have given up on polyamory because of relationship problems that a monogamous couple would have taken in stride.
There's also a danger of going to the other extreme, though. You get so defensive about your polyamorous relationship that you feel the need to be perfectly happy so you can prove to the rest of the world (and to yourself) the viability of your chosen relationship type. You ignore problems, or persist in a relationship that you're not really into, because you don't want all those naysayers to be right.
For example, imagine you have a nose ring. One day you realize this thing is just a pain in the ass, so you decide to take it out. But before you do, some moron comes along and says, "wipe your nose you fucking freak," and so you go and get an eyebrow ring and a labret and you run a chain between them and your nose ring because FUCK HIM! ...Well, that's all in good fun if all it costs you is fifty bucks at the Piercing Pagoda, but that's not the kind of pressure that makes for a healthy relationship.
The only two ways I've found to fend off this social pressure are to either 1) Not give a damn about what anyone else thinks (which seems counter to the spirit of polyamory, if not the letter) or 2) Build up a network of poly people around you for friendship, support, and encouragement. Thanks to a new invention called "The Internet" option 2 is getting easier all the time.
Warning: do not get in a relationship with your poly "buddies." That defeats the purpose Try to pick a support network of poly people who are old and unattractive :).
Anyway, enough about social pressure. It's tough, but it's manageable. The real difficulty in polyamorous relationships, in my experience, is much simpler. Poly people (myself included) are always spouting great "unlimited love" cliches, such as "the more love you give away, the more love you have to give" (this is from the poly article linked above), and you know what? They're all true. But time is limited.
No matter how much unlimited love you have, building intimacy is a time consuming process, and it never ends. You never g
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Re: Relationships take work and knowledge
by Schizo (Aranea@spidersdance.com)
on Sep 09, 2003 - 05:41 PM
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I don't think I shied away from reading anything here. Even though I'm most certainly the Shmeng poster child for monogamy, I like to think about alternate sexualities. Ever since escaping from fundamentalist cult/Christianity, I like to check and double check to make sure that I'm not just doing something because that's what I've been told to, or because that's what I've always done.
I also don't think that I felt any "fight back" reaction to anything. Although, BDSM appeals to me the least. Well, maybe a little bondage, and a tiny bit of pain, but I am far too stubborn and independant to make a good sub, and I really don't find any attraction to the idea of taking on the vast responsibility of being dominant. The thought makes me feel exhausted. And hardcore BDSM practices are really too much for me. I think I'm just a little too ordinary. But if it floats your boat, I have no problem with it.
I didn't doubt my views. I do what makes me happy in the bedroom (and my partner), you do what makes you and your partner(s) happy, and as long as it's all between consenting adults, it's none of my beeswax. That was, and still is my view.
And I don't think that any of your options are wrong. Some may be wrong for some people, i.e., not what is best for them, but I'm not going to say that being polyamory or BDSM is sick or somehow sinful.
Part of me would like to try polyamory. But not now. I have little enough time to spend with my one relationship without trying to branch out with others. But as for the whole sharing thing, I think, under the right circumstances, I could handle, and even enjoy it. Maybe if I had approached sexuality with the intent to practice polyamory, instead of monogamy, since, as I've already said, I'm stubborn and tend to stick to a chosen path. And maybe, if my life ever frees up and allows me time and energy for it, and my boyfriend feels equally comfortable, perhaps polyamory would be an option for the future. But I wouldn't try to force it, just to be different or revolutionary. If I'm meant to be poly, it will happen it it's own time. But certainly not around here! I'd be lucky to find two people I'm attracted to here in Hickville, USA, let alone ones that are really capable of participating in a polyamorous relationship!
Probably BDSM makes me the most curious, probably since it's the most foreign to my own nature. I think it would be very interesting to really get to know a true sub or dom, and find out their motivations. The same with a true sadist or masochist. I mean one who is not desperately in need of psychiatric help, of course. I don't see the motivation for BDSM for more than the smallest doses, so I would be fascinated to see in person what drives these people. Perhaps I have something to learn from this lifestyle, even though I really cannot see myself participating to any serious degree.
I don't think that any of these articles taught me more than I wanted. If anything, they barely scratched the surface, and left me with more questions than answers. And I was kind of disappointed in the one on monogamy. The research into animal relationships was fascinating, but I really don't think the author truly addressed the issues and motivations of someone who practices true monogamy, by which I mean one partner for life, not one partner until the magic disappears, and that partner is exchanged for a new one. Perhaps I should look deeper into my own reasons and issues while experiencing monogamy, and write my own article on the subject.
What comes to my mind is, every person is an individual, and you can't cookie-cutter rules for a healthy relationship. Each person must find what satisfies them and their partner(s). It's no use trying to stuff
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Re: Relationships take work and knowledge
by Devin (devin-at-vibechild-dot-com)
on Sep 09, 2003 - 08:29 PM
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I'm a little disappointed with the responses to this article. It seems most of the respnses so far are from the people with the answers, rather than the people with the questions. I wonder if people just don't realize the vast amounts of firsthand knowledge and experience some of the people here have with these subjects. Or if maybe they're just too shy to ask.
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Re: Relationships take work and knowledge
by Squire-of-Gothos (Brian0049@hotmail.com)
on Sep 10, 2003 - 09:47 AM
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I have a question. How does everyone feel about the acceptance level of BDSM, polyamory, etc, in society. I know their is a portion of members here who subscribe to such sexual preferences (me included) but for some reason, the world at large has picked such issues as the last sexual Alamo, of sorts.
Their was a time, not too long ago, when homosexuality was the target of religious and social persecution. It was easy; their was no condensed group to represent the homosexual community, and they suffered. Luckily though, a great American revolution began, starting in the mid 60's. Between the painful realization that the government was corrupt, the maturity or rock, the sexual revolution, womens rights, and civil rights, gay rights began to gain an organized representation.
Though it may not be fully accepted, "gay" is a term people no longer readily fear and the understanding behind it is no longer a disgusting mystery. Homophobia is still our their, and some Christians and the like still damn the gays for blasphemising God, but not nearly with the same zeal as before. It would be like publicly denouncing people with SUV's; I hate em, lots of people hate em, but plenty don't, and I doubt it would go over well. All things considered, what about BDSM?
Where is our representation? Where is our acceptance? My mother told me that she would love me if where gay, straight, whatever, but when I told her I enjoyed pain, that I liked to tie and be tied, and that I wanted to be commanded, needless to say she was shocked. Why is it that the subject conjures up so many images of Satanic ritual, bloody acts, The dominatrix beating her helpless victim, et all. As if this is torture? As if we bring in blind, naive people and rape and destroy their lives. The worst part is that popular society has known of such acts for decades; DeSade was putting on play with subject matter like flogging, beating, rape, homosexuality, binding to chains, whips, exhibition and Sub and Dom action.
Despite all of this, society at largeis still mystefied, scared and ignorant of the entire subject, and as most of us know, people dislike or ignore that which they don't understand. Now that we have a few articles dealing which such subjects, and a good contingency of people who practice and a good contingency who don't, what do you all think of BDSM and polyamory, do they need a movement? Should we together work to get the message out, and fight for BDSM acceptance? Is BDSM really a disgusting fetish, that people don't need to know about? Or is it a step towards a racial, religious, and sexual equality?
Hell if I know.....
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Re: Relationships take work and knowledge
by Arthegarn on Sep 10, 2003 - 02:03 PM
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I did not shy away from reading any of the whole things.
The one on Polyamory made me fight the most, because it's a well-written, logic-based article which just uses axioms I don't believe to be axioms. Several of the starting points are not "Truths so evident that they are out of discussion". The one on concupescency I just didn't agree with. The one on BDSM I had some points of disagreement, but none to bring me so wishful to have an interactive debate about the topic as the pliyamory one
None made me doubt my views, because my views start with "I think" and end with "to me". What might be good for others might not be good to me and vice versa
All of them did, specially the polyamory one. The BDSM might have done more if I wasn't so much turned into a toy doll...
I think that promiscuity is wrong for me becasue I have tried it and it fired back. I so not neccessarily think polyamory is wrong for me, but I really consider it extremely unlikely (I admit to be a serial monogamist, but if you dig a little you'll find me to be a frustrated monogamist). I do not think BDSM is wrong for me.
I do not want to try promiscuity because I already did and I don't like it. I want to try polyamory to see if it's really possible, and because if it were I would love and be loved by more than one individual. I want to try BDSM for the reasons exposed in my Toy Dolls 13 (I think) comment
BDSM is the one I am most curious about.
None makes me feel I have learned more than I wanted. Perhaps polyamory, but I think it's because there are many points I'd like to discuss and they burn inside me
"Geeek, that's weird" is the first thing that comes to mind when I think back. Sorry, brainwashed since I was a kid, I suppose. At least I know it ;-)
I answer because you asked and said you'd love to see the answers, and because trying to explain yourself to others is the best way to put your own ideas in order and really understand what you have just learned.
As for Monogamy being a relationship between a person and hir God... Though that relationship is by definition monogamous and I understand what you mean (and I like it, it's beautiful) I don't consider that it's a definite truth. But my opinion is quite long and I'd need to write an article In Dubio Pro Monogamia or something like that... Perhaps I will
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