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Articles: an email and a response
Posted by callei on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:31 PM PST

Drama
I recently got an email from someone that wanted to tell me what goth really was and why I am not goth. Let's call her "duh". Duh told me that goth is a state of mind, the most over used phrase ever. Duh told me that it is only a style. Thank you Joan Rivers jr. She also told me that it was a way of seeing the world. Then she told me I was as ungoth as you can get and that she was a "true gothic". She also told me that she was 15 (I think) and raised in a suburb of some city that I have never heard of in some state in the middle of the country. I tried to be nice and give her food for thought. I may have over done it. You tell me… It is just a style to some people; that is their emotion/mental depth and they think that wearing this or that will give them friends. This is as deep as they get and it can be argued that since they have a limited mind, they also have a limited "state of mind." Every sub-culture has its hanger-ons and wanna-be-as-cool-as-yous. They look "goth" to some non-goths, but most people aren't fooled and tease them terribly, and I am not talking about being teased by goths alone here since most people tease them. But the truth in their hearts is that it is a fashion. That is their state of mind. Does that make them goth or make goth a "just" a fashion? Yes to them and no to other people.

I agree that there is more to goth than just buying the symbols associated with goth. But you need the symbols too. It is a matter of WHY you buy the clothes, read the books, etc. An unexpressed state of mind is more of a mood than a lifestyle or belief system. For example, if your gut feeling is to be nice to people, you tend to act on that feeling. It becomes a behavior, not just an idea. If your state of mind says that the ocean is the best place on earth, you tend to read about it, watch movies about it, think about it, move to be near it, decorate you house with it, wear clothes that express that love etc. If you buy "goth" things because you like them, feel more comfortable around or in them, and truly prefer them to other things, then is it "just a style" or just an expression of your style?

You are right that "goth" is a way of seeing the world, but what you see affects what you do; the abused child grows up to be an abuser, English speaking parents tend to raise children that speak English and so on. When it comes to teens in very sheltered and abusive homes, they may not dress what they feel, or listen to the music that matches their minds but this is due to external influences not internal desires. If they are strong enough, they tend to show it regardless of the abuse. If they are not quite that strong, they still show it, but in subtler ways. If they are overwhelmed by it, they tend to kill themselves.

The ones that live tend to the black clothes as soon as they can and you find them littering the coffee shops at two in the morning arguing about Nietzsche and Juno. Yes, and often smoking cloves.

What I am saying here is that what you think effects what you do. If you think you are goth, then you tend to do goth things, whatever those may be. That holds true whether or not you are really "goth." The fashion victims think they are goth, so they tend to do things that they think of as being "goth". The rest of us giggle at them, sleep with them, or borrow money of them, and sometimes even make friends with them.

Goths tend not to care what other people wear, since clothes don't make the man, they just make you street legal and keep your nipples from freezing off. A goth may tease you about what you wear, but they would tease you about what you eat, drink, say, think, the people you know or don't know, watch, dream about, drive, work for, etc.

We tend towards teasing. Less ego formed goths may even be mean about it. But keep in mind that they are still making the boundaries around their lives. They are working to make themselves and other people are the mirrors that they have to use to see what they are making.

More ego formed goths tend to tease you about your actions instead of the symbols that you own. They tease you for being late, early, still going to x-place, or doing x thing, your job, or something like that.

Think about what you emailed me. You attacked my way of life, my friends' way of life, and total strangers that share my way of life. You put bizarre labels on people based on how they are dressed. And then you made the ever-popular Uber goth statement. Glitter goth?
Glam goth?
And real gothic? (this was in response to her assessment of my "gothness". she decided that glitter goths are the only "real goths" and that they are properly called "gothic" not "glitter goth". I dont think she was trying to be funny.)

There are people who refuse the label goth, because they refuse to have people try to treat them as mopey, like the stereotype.
There are people who refuse to be labeled goth because they have waaaaaay to much fun with the art of self-expression and are walking performance art.
And no self-respecting goth would be called gothic.

The only people I know that call themselves "gothic" are fashion victims and the poor goths that get stuck hanging out with a crowd of them. Ok also the very young and unlearned goths sometimes self-label that way, but it is rare.

All your labels are immaterial to the people that live that way. You are trying to assign a fashion label to a set of actions, mixing metaphors as it were. Yes, those labels exist, but that does not make them anymore real than any other label.

Duh never wrote back to me. I wonder why.





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Re: an email and a response
by ravinsaend (-)
on May 28, 2002 - 09:56 PM
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I don't think you overdid it, really. I just think it probably overloaded her young little brain to hear the views of a truly open-minded person.
Happens sometimes. too often, actually.
You've a good cheer from me(I'd give ya three but I'm just feeling too lazy after my weekend fun)


Re: an email and a response
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com)
on May 28, 2002 - 11:40 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/strangeasangels/
Well if you write stupid emails, you have to expect something...I prefer to belive that you overloaded her, she had an aneurism and is in a vegetable ward somewhere, unable to properly "glitterize" her "gothic" behind by herself.
15 and so wise...how does that happen? I love it when little kids know everything, takes a load off of me having to be an educated adult...Man, I didn't NEED to have been there and done that, SHE'S got it all figured out at the ripe old age of 15! SHE"LL impart her highschool wisdom on me...WHEW!
What a load off.

"gothic".....*giggle* ooo that's rich.

Email her for me with this:

My black is blacker than your black.

with darkened thoughts of ravens in graveyards
bettie X

dimwit


Re: an email and a response
by Schizo on May 29, 2002 - 04:56 AM
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Poor duh.

Why is it that so many people have to go around saying "I'm goth and you're not"? Why do they think it matters? Does being goth make you somehow superior to society?

I think it's a sign of really low self-esteem. When someone's whole life is wrapped up in being a "true gothic" you know they aren't comfortable with themselves. As for me, I could give a shit less whether I'm "true gothic" or not. If someone told me I wasn't a goth, my first reaction would be "oh really? that's interesting!" and go on doing whatever I was doing.

And what is it with these 15 year olds who know everything? How come I didn't know everything when I was 15? Why does it seem that the younger you are, the more sure you are that you've drunk from the fountain of knowledge? The more I live, the more I realize that I am damn inexperienced, and there are worlds of things I know nothing about.

But wow these teenagers! If the world were run by teenagers, what would it be like? I'm sure they'd fix everything...


Re: an email and a response
by Cashmere (-)
on May 29, 2002 - 05:39 AM
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If you were overdoing it, you would not have supported yourself so well. This peron was not expecting an actual lesson when she wrote to you; she was expecting a bitter retort so that she could be satisfied in bringing someone else's self confidence down. She sounds to me lik on of those people who make snide comments about the girl in glasses and then cries to herself on why she isn't liked. You did not give er the answer she expected, so maybe she feels threatened. You showed yourself confident of your beliefs by supporting them in an accessible way. It is now up to Duh to see if she can accept the knowledge given to her.


I swear, these people embarass me on behalf of (around and slighlty younger than) my generation.


Re: an email and a response
by Arthegarn on May 29, 2002 - 07:07 AM
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Overdone? Well, I am not completely sure what do you mean by that (or what does it mean, whatsoever), but the only comment I can post after reading your disertation is:

"It was not honey made for the donkey's mouth, nor pearls to be thrown to the pigs"

Most likely she didn't get it and, if she did, I don't think she can appreciate the beautifully exposed truth beneath the words.

And my black is the idea of black

Arthegarn


Re: an email and a response
by IamSquid (AAA@sockmonkeys.net)
on May 29, 2002 - 11:00 AM
(User info | Send a Message) http://
That's what being 15 is all about. Im 22 and Im the first to admit I dont know evreything--I dont even know how fish work.

My friend told mee that 1 in 6 people think theyre cool. To mee, cool is something in the eyes of other people. I interprit this 1 in 6 people is conceited. People who call themselves "goth" always seem to have something to prove.

Scenes suck anyway.


Re: an email and a response
by Xaoswolf (Xaoswolf@hotmail.com)
on May 30, 2002 - 12:06 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://Xaoswolf.tripod.com
Beautiful response, though I was kinda hoping for some kind of verbal boxing match, imagining this poor girl sitting in front of her computer in a daze trying to understand adult speech is also a rather pleasing thought.


Re: an email and a response
by Beautiful_Nobody on May 30, 2002 - 11:10 PM
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Well, are you friends with this "Duh" person?? I don't think Duh had a right telling you what you can and cannot be. Espically since you seem to have a mature response. By that I mean you didn't write back saying "What the fuck?! BITCH I'MMA BEAT YO ASS, DIEEE" and fucknot.. you got your point across and hopefully that "true gothic" can get some more insite on what it feels like to have their ass meet someone's foot, if you keep telling people that they're not who they choose to be, then they'll mess with the wrong person and well.. heh. I know one girl, she wants to be goth because she can't. She wants to because she wants to support the stereotypes then freak out when they call her something. It's sad, really..


Offspring of the Damned.
by Dolorosa on May 31, 2002 - 05:06 AM
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Silly childrens...I hesitate to say she's a complete moron or something like that, because I have met some extremely enlightened kids (Kid being anyone from one year olds to twenty nine year olds by my train of thought, and yeah, that means I'm a kid too) she doesn't seem to be one though, maybe she's just trying to hard to catogorize things...I dunno' good job givin' her the ol' What-for though Callei. Theres always hope for the young, of course, especially when you teach 'em by fire.
And jus' 'cause...I don't happen to be a glam, glitter or uber goth...
I consider myself, a Gothorosa...yeah baby...


Re: an email and a response
by firefly7 (-)
on Jun 02, 2002 - 08:53 AM
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It's a little confusing that some one in a "gothic state of mind" would go around telling people they don't really know that the person is "ungoth". A little judge-mental suburban teen- nothing wrong with it, but she seems a bit quirky none the less.


Re: an email and a response
by Brom_Cesare (brom_cesare@yahoo.com)
on Jun 06, 2002 - 03:16 AM
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Right on! I think you made her blow a fuse, or maybe she got glitter in her eye, went blind, & couldn't see to type a response. But seriously No i don't think you went to far, it's a commendable thing to try & enlighten the ignorant no matter if you succeed or not. I may not dress goth or wear any jewelery (piercings or such) but I'm still goth at heart.


Re: an email and a response
by griffith (-)
on Nov 01, 2003 - 05:10 PM
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I think Duh needs to wake up, get some fresh air, and keep her neck clear of things that she does not want to, or care to uderstand. I think your reaction to our friend Duh was if anything kinder than i myself would have been, had some taken it upon themselves to criticize me in that way.



Re: an email and a response
by anayansi (lyra_belaque@hotmail.com)
on Feb 08, 2004 - 02:04 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://
oh, that's beautiful. but i am left with a question: wtf is a glitter goth? geez, people like duh make me slightly ashamed to be a teenager...oh well, maybe she'll outgrow it...i seem to recall being a terrible brat at 15 as well, although i did the whole curling into myself and being awful rather than lashing out at people who would just laugh at me. ;0)


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