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Articles: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant |
Posted by
Schizo on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 04:04 AM PST
OK. Just to warn you, this is Schizo the Christian suddenly poking her head out of her cave. This is not an attempt at evangelization. This is merely a rant about all the arguments people throw at me about how mean God is. I figure, if people can post things that are anti-Christianity, I can post something in defense. So don't say I didn't warn you!
OK. One of the biggest arguments I get against God is that He's a big meanie because He makes bad things happen to people. That's bullshit. People make bad things happen to people. People rob people. People act cruelly to people. You might say, why doesn't God stop the bad people from hurting the good people? Well, define bad or good person. Where do you draw the line?
For one thing, every "bad" person has something good about them, and every "good" person has something bad about them. There is no perfectly good or bad person. And even if you could separate the human race that way, think what God would have to do to keep bad people in line.
Scenario - bad person about to mug good person. Raises knife, but a cosmic force field keeps the knife from stabbing. Or he trips over a crack in the pavement. Or he suddenly receives an irresistable urge to give the victim his own wallet.
What happens here? One person in the scenario has just lost his free will. That's what happens. And that's what God won't do. He won't steal anyone's free will. That's what made the mugger bad, after all, stealing the victims free will to decide what to do with his money! So if you want to be bad, you can! Your conscience might bug you, it might get into deep shit, but you can do the bad thing if you want. God won't strike you with lightning to stop you.
OK. Some things happen bad to people that other people didn't directly do. Like a genetic disease, or an act of nature.
Which means that God is supposed to somehow fix all genes in all babies before they are born, and control all breezes and slitherings of the earth's crust so no one gets a splinter. Well, I suppose He could do that. He could keep Mid-western Joe from having his house smashed to bits by a tornado. And who knows how many times He does that? I think God knows exactly who is in the path of that tornado, and has it all under control.
Ooooh! Do you know what that means? It means that God let something bad happen to someone DELIBERATELY! Well, what's wrong with that? Parents do that to their kids all the time! Parents take the training wheels off their kids bikes and let them fall and scrape their knees. If they left the training wheels on forever, that wouldn't happen! But you'd end up with a teenager that never learned how to ride a bike.
Maybe that's what God's doing sometimes. Teaching people things, helping them to learn lessons they otherwise would never know. Expanding their horizons. It's uncomfortable. It's difficult. But it needs to be done. And the people still have free choice. They can decide to learn, or they can figuratively keep pushing the bike with their feet so they won't fall over. It's up to them.
And believe me, I've been through enough shit in my short life to be able to say this. I haven't had an easy, coddled life. Obviously, there are people out there who have been through more than I have, but I've been through enough to see. And I'm sure there are a lot of you out there who have been through shit and let it teach you, and can say, like me, that now you are glad it happened, because it made you bigger, stronger, and better able to cope with other things that come up. That's part of life. It's what makes life real and not a game. If life were too easy, we'd all kill ourselves from boredom, rather than a few from pain.
And don't say I'm making light of suicide, either, because I've been there too. And even that has taught me something.
And about the people that die, and you may say, what have they been taught?
Why is it such a tragedy to die young? We all have to die sometime. Sure, it hurts more for those who loved the person, because it wasn't expected. But does it really make a difference to the person who died? If you believe in an afterlife, then the person just went there a little earlier. If you don't, and believe that you just end, then that person doesn't even know it died.
And as for those who mourn, it's pain, and it teaches, if we let it. Why should God shelter us from pain? His job is not to shelter, but to support. He doesn't throw shit at us, but helps us through and teaches us when it comes.
And that's what I think, based on my 24 years of gritty experience. That's my rant.
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The Resident Christian's Personal Rant | Login/Create an account | 42 Comments |
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant
by Maranda (saboneta@aol.com)
on Jul 27, 2001 - 06:23 AM
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The issues you describe aren't specifically related to Christianity. The book of Job in the Old Testament was an examination of the same question-- why do bad things happen to good people? Hinduism declares that it is a person's past-life bad karma that brings on the misfortunes of the present life. Buddhism, which doesn't have a sentient God in its worldview, espouses the same concept. Many of the world's pre-Christian Pagan religions are filled with mythology that attempts to answer the same questions.
I believe it was F. Scott Fitzgerald who said-- and I'm perhaps misquoting here-- that the mark of an intelligent species is the ability to hold two contradictory, irreconcilable points in the mind at once. One should, for instance, be able to accept that the world is filled with evil and yet be optimistic about its chances to improve itself.
This seems to me to be the message of the Christian New Testament, as well as the Buddhist search for enlightenment through meditation. I could even stretch the point and refer to the myth of King Arthur and Avalon-- is our fate decided by our choices, our predetermined destinies, or a combination of both?
I think your larger point is that you're tired of others insulting your beliefs. You have every right to be pissed off there. Nobody with real manners goes up to people at random and tells them they've got their heads up their asses about everything. This is just not a way for civilized people to behave. Why else do the Jehovah's Witnesses attract so much scorn?
Unfortunately, people who make it their mission to evangelize others are often the least secure about their own beliefs. If they can convince you to agree with them, they feel a little more secure. They're also not interested in a real discussion of beliefs: they just want their own theories validated. So trying to talk with them is usually a waste of time.
And this doesn't just apply to religion. Political parties, self-help groups, business management consultants-- the list goes on.
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 04:29 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Kind of off the subject, but a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses really saved my ass the other day!
Was on the phone with my Mom, and as usual, she was getting a little preachy with me about me living with my boyfriend.
All of a sudden, two men in business suits knock on my door. Here I am, in plain view, wearing pajamas and talking on the phone, but do they do the polite thing and leave me alone? No, they knock. And wait. Until I get off the phone and answer them, still in my jammies.
The fact that they bailed me out of an annoying phone conversation does not diminish the utter rudeness of their behavior. I sent them on their way without further ado. |
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Why should people die young?
by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com)
on Jul 27, 2001 - 08:04 AM
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And if that baby is born, who is sinless, why must the baby be forced to live life with a horrible genetic disorder? Go up to a child with cru-di-chet and tell them that a higher power is trying to teach them a lesson by making them look like a cat, and then explain to them that they probably won't be alive past the age of 8.
Explain to a Chernobyl mother that her baby was a lesson to her, and that she should have never been working in that evil plant to get by. Let this child, who lived for approximately 14 minutes, and then died because of entire myocardiac failure be a lesson to you, that god is the only power provider you need ever buy in to.
Explain to a pregnant Jewish girl huddled in a doorway in Palestine that because she was not right with god, she is being punished. Explain to her that god uses these things to teach us lessons, and even though your husband is dead and you will probably die from exhaustion or cold, she should remember to learn the lesson in all this.
Explain it to the world.
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Re: Why should people die young? by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 01:51 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I never said it was a punishment, I said it was a lesson. God doesn't "send" these things, He just doesn't sterilize life for us so nothing bad ever happens to us. He doesn't strike people with lightning, just happens that someone was in the way of lightning's natural path. And it can be argued that genetic mutations are the result of someone's mistreating their bodies, or the environment, or something else. The Chernobyl baby would be the fault of the people who carelessly designed that power plant. It was their choice to do it that way, and God isn't going to cosmically interfere with their actions. He will, however, help make something good out of tragedy, if allowed.
You might say, why would God allow a child to be born to a violently insane man to be abused and to learn fear and pain in quantities a child is not supposed to experience? Yet that happened to me, and years later, I can say that I have learned from that, that I am stronger, wiser and better because of it. It was not easy going through it, it was not fun, I have said "Why, God" a hundred times, been angry, wanted not to believe in Him, yet in the end the negative experience has been turned to positive.
I know a family whose son was born brain-damaged due to a doctor's mistake. Years later, the same family gave birth to a Down's Syndrome child. Why? I don't know. But because that family has decided to take life's shit and not get angry, they are now among the strongest and sweetest people I know. And the two handicapped boys are also sweet, wonderful children. Sure, life is hard for that family, but it is good, too.
I would not say to anyone in the middle of hardship that they have a lesson to learn. That is simply insensitive. But if possible, I would help them to the point that they could see that for themselves. |
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And... by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 01:58 PM (User info | Send a Message) | And what was the lesson fore the baby? it was a sentient creature, was it not? Did god only give him life for 14 minutes to give him pain?
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Re: And... by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 02:42 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Hellooooo! How am I supposed to know what the lesson is? I never claimed to know what the lessons are, just that they exist. I only know my own lessons. You know your lessons.
And don't underestimate the gift of life. Even a 14 minute life. Who knows the importance of a little 14 minute old baby's death? God finds even the death of a bird important. Nothing is lost, nothing wasted. God knows what is going on. I don't.
I know very little about my own life, and I am not claiming to have the answers to all of life's problems. The life of that theoretical baby is it's concern, and maybe it's parents. My life is my concern. Your life is yours. But I do know enough of God through living my own life, the only life I have any personl knowledge and experience in, to know that God is good, that He is not the source of evil and pain, and that somehow He has all the 14 minute old babies in His hand and it is not in vain. I can't go any further than that. Sorry if I can't give you a better answer. But I am not God.
And don't say I'm copping out, because I would like to see you give a more watertight explanation of pain and God and the whole universe. I challenge you to try, and let me try to shoot holes in it. |
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Mn. by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 06:08 PM (User info | Send a Message) | My faith is not a weapon, and I will not use it to fight you. My beliefs are mine, and i will not cross the line that I have set for myself and use my beliefs as an emotional sword. |
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Re: Mn. by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 07:22 PM (User info | Send a Message) | My faith is not a weapon either. But I am sick of people bashing it, when they don't understand it and are judging it by the losers who only claim to be Christians but have no idea what it's about. I am merely standing up for my faith. And I will continue to stand up for it, and nothing can make me back down. I don't know what your faith is, and I really don't care. That's your business, and if you don't want to talk about it, it's your business too. It just seems that if you feel like challenging my view, you might have what you consider a more logical way to explain the purpose of suffering? Perhaps you could present it instead of just pointing out how little I know about why the world hurts? I never claimed to know it all. But I do know some, and it's stuff I've observed for myself, not stuff that's been force-fed me. |
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What? by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 08:06 PM (User info | Send a Message) | first, I never said you don't know about why the world hurts. I just pointed out your excuse for why the world hurts stinks. Secondly, I did not make my beliefs public, or claim that they were correct. Thirdly, "a omnipotent power in the sky who has been acting on shaping mankind from the beginning causes all the suffering in the world because if you have free will, you must suffer," as a reasonf or explaining suffering in the world IS NOT LOGICAL. |
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Re: What? by Schizo on Jul 28, 2001 - 12:28 AM (User info | Send a Message) | No, you didn't make your beliefs public. I'm OK with that.
Free will does not cause suffering. Misused free will causes suffering. Well-used free will relieves suffering.
God made mankind. But He only shapes those portions of mankind that allow Him to. By His own rules, He cannot interfere with a person's choices without that person's direct permission. He may control the circumstances around them, but not the person itself.
Not that He is unable, but He is unwilling, because people were designed as companions, not slaves. The moment He starts tinkering with free will, all His friends turn into robots.
This allows mankind to become the enemy of God. And because God is the embodiment of all that is good, to become an enemy of God is to become an enemy of good. Therefore, evil is allowed into the world. War, hate, pain, sickness, all that is wrong and hurts on earth is here as a result of rebellion against God, the source of life and joy.
But because God is more powerful than man, He is able to transform even the mangled results of man's wayward behavior. And so man struggles in his painful world, and through his struggling either wounds himself or strengthens himself, as he chooses either rebellion's way or the way of life.
God, being not only omnipotent, but omnicient, knew at the creation of the universe and its inhabitants, that this would happen. And he knew that without resistance nothing can become strong. And things fought for and won are sweeter than those easily aquired. Apparently He thought it worth both His and our while for this to happen. I agree with Him.
Note: this is intended as discussion and debate, and is in no way intended to judge one person or another as "in rebellion" or not. This is a statement of what I believe, given in response to a challenge to what I believe.
One thing more - you may ask, what about the people who are crushed beneath the pain and never learn to fight through? God, being omnipotent and omniscient, and also benevolent, has provided a chance for every human on the face of the earth. We cannot always control the circumstances around us. Often we cannot control our feelings. But we can control our attitudes. I have no right to preach to anyone else about this. I am talking primarily to myself. If I do not have an attitude of defeat, then I am not defeated. You are not conquered until you surrender. |
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So you're saying you're not going to stop? by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 28, 2001 - 07:38 AM (User info | Send a Message) | God created man in his image.
Is god circumsized?
God is more powerful than man.
Can god create a stone so big he cannot lift it?
God is omniscient.
Can god think of creating a stone so big even he cannot lift it?
How is the will misused if it the will of man and god created man to be exactly like him? That would mean god sanctions war, violence, hate and petty theft from the example we all seem too share. Well, we've looked through history and god does sanction war. The Crusades, for example, are a biggie. And the children's crusades. Where hundreds of thousands of children died for thier faith. Does god sanction the death of children? Well, since god has the free will to program us up with the capability to cause war, he must sanction it. Especially if all the kids that are dieing crossing a river are wearing "God's Scouts" patches.
Look at the world today and tell me "what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger and more faithful." The muslims have you beat as far as a religion with devout followers goes. Look at those crazy bastards, driving bussloads of dynamite into walls just to die for the greater glory of god. Three-fourths of Africa is on fire with aids, one-half of it is on fire politically, and last but not least, they have Christian missionaries dangling food in front of the "tribal heathens" and will only give them a small ration barely enough to feed their family if they can recite the whom begot whoms of the Bible. Look at the home of your religion. Why, you couldn't go to the little town of Bethlehem last christmas because of all the spent rifle rounds on every airway strip. The spiritual centre of the world is being fought for again, and that should at least open your eyes a little bit to see that your religion is just a clone, a rip-off, or a cheap imitation brand of monotheism with a dash of hatred here and a sprig of racism there.
It is not a religion that will last much longer, nor will your faith or the faith of the world become stronger by carrying this scar on the face of humanity further in to the new century. |
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Re: So you're saying you're not going to stop? by Schizo on Jul 28, 2001 - 09:19 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Image does not mean exact copy. God does not have a physical body. He is pure spirit. I have never seen a pure spirit. Humans resemble God in that they have a spirit, and the capacity for free will.
God cannot fail. That is what He cannot do. He cannot fail to lift anything He wants to, if that's what He feels He needs to do. It's an old play on words, Comedian, and below you.
Parents allow their children free will. They do not bind them (most parents, anyway) and force their children to do every thing just the way it pleases them. But that does not mean that those parents sanction the wrong things their children do. God does not sanction violence, etc, but He has allowed it because people have insisted. He will not squash the human will. He knew these things would happen when He created humans. And parents know their children will do wrong things when they procreate. But parents still make babies, and we do not hate them for it. Why should God then be vilified for making humans?
He also has woven it into His world that all wrongdoing has it's own natural punishment. The very fiber of the world shows God's distaste for violence and cruelty and lies and other wrong things.
How many times do I have to say it? WHAT IS DONE IN THE NAME OF GOD IS NOT NECESSARILY HIS WORK. If I kill someone in the name of Comedian, should you take the blame? If I tell a child to cross a street blindfolded because Comedian told me it should, are you to blame? What if the Spanish Inquisition was done in the name of Comedian instead of the name of God? These people may have been worshipping something, they may have used the name of the God I serve and love, but it is not the same Person. And God should not take the rap for these twisted acts.
I don't have a religion. I quit going to church a long time ago. I keep no holy rituals. I have abandoned most of the language of my faith. What I have retained is a growing, expanding relationship with the powerful Being who made me and cares for me. It is not a religion. It is more like a love affair. I know this Person. He knows me. It has nothing to do with a Pope, or a missionary in Africa, or Sir Richard the Lionhearted. It is between myself and God. I don't care if all religion in the world dies out. God exists, and I am convinced of that. I have spent my life searching for Him. I have thrown my trust on Him over and over and never been let down.
As far as my limited brain can reason, the concept of a just and good and powerful God makes sense to me. But even if my reason fails me and there are things I do not understand and cannot explain, I will not let go. If I could understand all of God's ideas and reasons for things, I would think the whole thing very fishy. I can't even understand Einstein, let alone the maker of the entire universe. If I could understand it, it would be proof that the whole concept was fabricated by man. It makes enough sense to remove my reasonable doubt. And, laugh at me if you will, I have had enough personal proof of the existance of God to render me certain.
I don't think I care to argue anymore. I have stated my point. At this point, I am merely repeating myself. You do not want to hear me. That is your choice. I am not here to convert, merely to defend. I have done that to the best of my ability. Lets stop hashing and rehashing, because neither of us is going to change the other.
This is not a surrender. I still hold my position. But futher argument is pointless. |
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If everything WAS DONE in the name of Comedian, then people would laugh it off! by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 28, 2001 - 09:54 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his OWN image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
His own likeness. I will ask again. Do you think God is circumsized?
Ah, so you're saying you are a monotheist removed from rituals.
"My faith is not a weapon either. But I am sick of people bashing it, when they don't understand it and are judging it by the losers who only claim to be Christians but have no idea what it's about."
You want a peice of my theology? Fine. My law is that only a hypocrit would call another person a hypocrit. But I AM willing to call myself a hypocrit if it means working towards your silencing. You claim you are not a Christian, and that you are not involved with the Christians-- but when you say that it is only your relationship with god, and then proceed to whine that people bash your faith-- what are you saying? Christianity is The New Testament, Ray Stevens music, and old ladies in pink floral dresses talking to the new young pastor outside the church on a sunny sunday afternoon in Wyoming or one of those square states in the middle of America-- You say you are a Goth, and you have a relationship with god.
"I don't have a religion. I quit going to church a long time ago. I keep no holy rituals. I have abandoned most of the language of my faith. What I have retained is a growing, expanding relationship with the powerful Being who made me and cares for me. It is not a religion. It is more like a love affair."
GOOD. Why didn't you state this earlier? YOU HAVE NO RELIGION. Then why did you post a rant complaining about people BASHING YOUR RELIGION? If there's nothing there to bash, people are just banging their heads against a wall. You have admitted YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN. Don't complain that people are bashing christians then; it is not your quarrel. If you feel like standing up for them, good for you. defend the weak. But don't claim to be them one minute and then when the pressure starts, evacuate. 'Kay? |
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Re: If everything WAS DONE in the name of Comedian, then people would laugh it off! by Schizo on Jul 28, 2001 - 05:22 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Christianity in its pure and original form is a relationship with God that has gathered ceremonial trappings along the way. I use the word Christian as a convenient label, just as I use the word Goth. But when people start attacking anything that moves under that label, I get a little pissed. But the label is not me. I protest the attack, and then cast away the offending label. All the label I need here is Schizo. So hopefully I'll avoid the random bashing that goes with the Christian label. I care nothing for the word Christian. I care everything for God.
I know you want to continue attacking me, now, whatever I call myself. Why? Because I posted something you disagree with? Because I can't explain every detail of my thoughts? Yes, my thoughts are flawed. I am human, and I don't know enough to fill in all the gaps. I say stupid things sometimes, and sometimes things I don't really mean, or use a phrase I haven't thought completely through.
But you aren't interested in hearing me, you are interested in bludgeoning me.
Believe it or not, I did not post this to offend. I posted it because I was sick of something and needed to vent. If everything everyone else posted was so laboriously examined and fought, you would find the same holes and inconsistencies. I apologize for my imperfection. But I still believe what I believe.
And if you saw God the way I see him, you would laugh at the ludicrousity (is that a word?) of the things that are done in His name. That is, if you weren't to sickened to laugh.
OK. It seems that I am no longer defending Christianity, or God, but myself. I admit my flaws. But they are not all of who I am. They are under the magnifying glass now, but they are not all of who I am. |
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Re: If everything WAS DONE in the name of Comedian, then people would laugh it off! by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jul 29, 2001 - 12:31 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/strangeasangels/ | Schitz, hon, don't bother yourself with rotten mr.c. He likes to fight, throw bs at you, and pretend he has intellegent arguments. Yes, I'm speaking of you, jackass.
Why am I attacking comedian? Because, aforesaid jackass, you are mean. Schitz was not instigating any kind of war, not insulting anyone, just voicing a frusteration with, well, jerks like you. She wasn't forcing her religion on anyone, yet you continued to barrage her over and over and over with "explain your faith to me. I deserve to have you under the grill. now now now"
Well, she doesn't have to explain jack to you. If she had been rude and condesending like SOME people here *cough*you*cough*, then yes, your incessant batterings would be warranted. They aren't. They are nothing more than some sick sob playing "let's poke someone ELSE with a stick 'cause I'm not man enough to vent my frusterations in the REAL world 'cause I'll get my punk ass stomped."
And all this is coming from the resident and ONLY as I've seen laveyian satanist. How 'bout that.
This is all reminicent of the doomed line of "Das booty call: who's better in the sack? Vegans or Carnivores" which you littered with "keep on killing baby lambs!" and "facts" (which I doubt their ligitimacy) that had nothing to do with vegans or murderers doing the rumpy bumpy. Then have the nerve to email me like you are all of a sudden a "grown up" and are INTERESTED in hearing anyone's opinions other than your own, thinking you are witty and/or even right.
You're lucky she's gracious and composed enough to have even carried on with you this long in an adult fashion. You came in all ready to pick a fight as always.
And if you didn't notice, YOU were polled as the one here that posts/replies with the most retarded drivel. So there.
Nobody ever accused ME of being grown up, so Schitz, take a breather.
Bring it all on the big bad vegan satanist. I'm ready.
oh yes, and if everything were modeled/named after you (yes, I know I'm misquoting, I don't care) we would indeed be laughing. At you.
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Huh? by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 29, 2001 - 08:25 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Fine bettie_x, you want a fucking fight? I'll give you a fucking fight.
You want to bring it back to veganism, let's bring it back to veganism. You suggested that I could survive on a soy-based diet if I took the right proteins and wasn't such a wishy-wash about about my fucking soy allergy.
Have you ever spent an hour in a bathroom tub bleeding because the aloe vera on the skin on your back, which is a mass os scab, blooding, and crackling skin is bleeding so bad you can't wear clothes and have eyes so puffy you can't even cry because of the pain? You know how that esode happened? I fucking ate a tofu salad and had peanuts. I sat and tried to cry in a bathroom tub FOR A FUCKING HOUR WHILE MY BODY BLED AND MY SKIN NEARLY CAME DOWN TO THE LOWER TISSUE WHERE KIDS GET FUCKING SCRAPES ON THEIR KNEES. Don't even PRETEND like your vegan fantasy of the world is right, bitchy_x, because there are ALWAYS fuckign exceptions to the rules. You know what my meory of the circus was? After eating the bag of peanuts that they gave me so I could watch the show, I ran to the bathroom and scratched my skin off EVERYWHERE. You know what excema is with a soy allergy? Suicide in the world today. Try eating at any fast-food restaurant where they serve ANYTHING, and try and find something without soy. Go to fucking wild oats and try and find something without soy. And send me a fucking list in the mail when youi find it, because I'll be glad to have a diet where I don't spend most of my time having other people tell me when I'm sc5atching and feeling like I've got a combination of chicken pocks/poison ivy all over my fucking body. You know, I'm so goth, I can't get a fucking tan? Well that's me, and you know why? Because my body is covered with so many scars, that if i get a tan the skin stands out and You can see the fact that my arms are a patchwork quilt of scar tissue. CALL ME A FUCKING LEPER IF IT'S WHAT MAKES YOU FUCKING HORNY, BITCHY_X. CAUSE THAT'S WHAT I FUCKIGN AM.
Mors tua, vita mea. |
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Re: Huh? by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jul 29, 2001 - 10:22 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/strangeasangels/ | Bitchy_x.....did you practice that one in front of a mirror first? I'm so very very impressed.
Get your panties out of a wad.
See? So quick to jump to a fight. You're looking for it, you'll find it anywhere, and if we're going to be petty, I'll be above it and avoid the obvious comment that picking a fight must leave your keyboard mighty sticky.
When did I EVER say a soy based diet was okay for you? QUOTE ME. I WANT EXACTS. My vegan world is right for me, a soy-less world is right for you, but what gives you the right to be a hypocrite? What the hell do your scars have to do with anything? Do people threaten to hold you down and shove soy down your throat? My heart BLEEDS, just BLEEDS for you, really. No really, watch....
I knew you like to overreact, but this irrelevant sub nuclear 2nd grade pissyfit was FAR more grandios than I ever expected even from the likes of you.
Go cry in your bathtub and pretend the world feels sorry for you.
but it's not my fault your an asshole.
Thanks for proving me right jackass.
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Re: If everything WAS DONE in the name of Comedian, then people would laugh it off! by Kamikhazi on Jul 29, 2001 - 01:16 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I'd like to start off saying I respect most of what was said on this thread. Some of the points were valid and had substance. But I'm confused why you would bring an entirely different topic into this. I understand that you and Comedian have a carry over from a different thread, but can't it stay there? I would also like to point out, that when you begin with a rant, like Schizo did, I assume your opening yourself to criticism and response, which hopefully would lead to a stimulating conversation. If you weren't looking for a response or reflection, then why would you post it...? Anyway all of this is just a thought, I'm not trying to flame anyone or anything of the sort. |
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Re: If everything WAS DONE in the name of Comedian, then people would laugh it off! by Schizo on Jul 29, 2001 - 02:54 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I welcome debate, I get sick of abuse. I think this thread has degenerated into abuse. That's why I dropped the subject.
Even the debate just got repetetive, which got tiresome. |
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Re: If everything WAS DONE in the name of Comedian, then people would laugh it off! by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jul 30, 2001 - 09:14 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/strangeasangels/ | I totally agree with that. I didn't bring up a different line, I made a reference to his attitude from an experience in a past line. I had no intention of draging up veganism, and he seemed to think that I was attacking his freaking SOY allergy....which I don't care about and went on about a bathtub and bleeding and that calling him a leper would get me "horny". This didn't come out of left field, it came out of a freaking ARMPIT. WAAAAAAY out there.....but proved my point nicely, I must say.
I was defending schitz, and she shouldn't have to be open to that sort of beligerant ignorance. Debate, yes. I LOOOOVE debate, but he wasn't debating....he was cramming, rambling, and freaking out to the likes I've rarely witnessed.
And what of a fight....jeezus, what is going to happen, flame me into submission? It's ludicrous. I wouldn't want that kind of treatment for voicing a very personal and non offensive article, so I'll be damned if I'm going to let a friend get battered (no matter how graciously and strongly she handled herself....cheers, doll).
All I can say is blow, rotten wad.
This is all....I've only got one contact in so I'm seeing double and only half of that clearly and I've got no time for bs.
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Is god circumsized? by Arthegarn on Aug 07, 2001 - 02:41 AM (User info | Send a Message) | It is oversized to be circumsized XD. Also, only males are circumsized, and as a token of their pact with God. God needs no token of a pact with Itself. Also, there is the slight problem that God has no sex... XD |
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Not only men are circumsized by ickgirl on Aug 10, 2001 - 03:00 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.envy.nu/ickgirl | Women are also circumsized in parts of the world!!!!!!!!!! Or, clitoris totally removed. Or, circumsized, clitoris removed, and then sewn shut. |
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Re: Not only men are circumsized by Arthegarn on Aug 27, 2001 - 12:15 PM (User info | Send a Message) | OK, you are right. I was talking about Jew circumsition, in which only men are so, but I humbly accept the correction. |
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At His Image by Arthegarn on Aug 07, 2001 - 02:56 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Woah, woah, woah, wait a second. God created humans at Its IMAGE, not as photocopies. It means that humans have self-awareness, intelligence and free will, nort that God looks like us. Also, God created humanity and humanity created war. Also, God created humanity, and humanity created the Church, and the Church sanctioned war saying it spoke in the name of God.
What God does sanction is Death. That's obvious, as God created Death. But he utterly condemns inflicting death to equals, and to the eyes of God we are all equals. So, you shall not kill, but It will, when he deems appropiate.
You play sophisms, but I will answer your question. If God had wanted to create humanity good, then we would not be humans but angels. Ig God had wanted to create us evil, then we would not be humans but devils. What God did was putting us in between, give us free will and HOPE THAT WE WOULD USE IT FOR GOOD. Just as parents must let sometime their creation go free, and hope they have taught him or her well enough as for him or her not to go astray, get into drugs and end up giving blowjobs for a dose of crack. God did the best it could be done that is compatible with free will, and then let us go. But God wants us to return home so to speak. If you choose not to, then that's your choice, but God will cry every step that you walk away from It. |
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Faith and fanatics by Arthegarn on Aug 07, 2001 - 03:03 AM (User info | Send a Message) | There is another sophism in your posting that requires separate comment. You say that "the muslims have you beat as far as a religion with devout followers goes". Well, it's not actually that way... I consider myself as devote to my religion as they are... at least. The point is my religion asks me not to do those spectacular things. Furthermore, it asks me not to lift a hand to defend myself through violence, so I do not think that a so-called christian that bonzoes him or herself has understood a word of the message of Christ. There are people who kill for the greater glory of God. Well, we die for the greater glory of God, if that's the same to you... and do not think that God asks such (I hope not to hurt anyone's feelings here) stupid-stupid-stupid things suchas those.
As for Bethelem... I am afraid we christians have very little to say about that conflict. It's jews and muslims, so don'tblame us with that. Just for the sake of truth |
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Re: Why should people die young? by Arthegarn on Aug 07, 2001 - 02:37 AM (User info | Send a Message) | First thing, there is a problem with this, and it's faith. In the end it all comes down to faith. If you believe that God is good, then you need no explaining about it. You just believe it all happens by a good reasons, and that's all you need. If you do believe god is mean, the it also comes down to that.
This also brings something up that really annoys me (you'll all have to forgive the language but I am not into slang well enough as to express myself without sounding like a book), and it's the people who only think about God to blame It for something. They do not believe even It exists, but it always comes in handy when tnere is no one around to blame. But that's another story...
As for the people who do not believe that good is necessariliy good or evil... where here go some rationalizations just for the sake of debate.
1) The sinless baby hypothesis: Well, first of all it can be argued that perhaps the baby was not alive to begin with. Roman Catholics believe, for instance, that a soul enters the body when tne body is ready to recieve it. So, if God wanted to teach something to someone, It need not be neccesarely cruel: you just put in the world a sort of NPC and that's all (I hope everyone is in RPGs...) Just body, no soul.
Second, and this is my belief, God has nothing to do with it. I believe God created this universe with a set of rules, so to speak, and then let it go free. By these rules sometimes disasters happen, but it is the wayof the world. So, an objection comes. Why did not God create a perfect universe? Because if It had we would not be humans on Earth, we would be angels in Heaven. And in my choice, 'tis better to live on Earth than serve in Heaven (Thanks for the quote, Johnny)
2) The Punishment Hypothesis: I do not believe this has nothing to do with punishment. God does not interfere with our affairs. He lets man punish or forgive man (The Divine Prime Directive, haw haw). I know that the Old Testament is filled with such interventions, but I mostly think of them as symbols. If Virgin mary were to appear before me, I'd grab my coat and run to a mental institution to be checked out.
There is something more to be said about that. Well, you can believe Gos has nothing to do with your misfortune, or that it is caused by It. What no one can deny is that, if even though you think you are being cruelly punished, you keep on believing and praying, you'll go straight to Heaven.
I hope the world has sufficient explanation. |
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant
by Kira (starchyld9@aol.com)
on Jul 27, 2001 - 11:49 AM
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Yay! Theological discussions!
Ok...before I get started a couple things have to be said for the record.
First off, (and this should be obvious) you have every right to post about your beliefs and also to believe whatever you want.
Second, I agree that you have every right to be angry for people attacking your belief system. No one likes to see something they hold sacred ridiculed. BUT...by your own logic you should be using those anti-Christian people as a reason to go deeper within yourself and your own faith. But it sounds like you may be doing that already...
Third, I'm definitely not trying to convert anyone. By responding to this I'm just offering up my own theories on religion and God. Now for my $.02
Ok, so we've established that bad things happen to good people and vice versa. There are several possible reasons that this could happen, but I'll focus on your theory and my theory only. Your theory is- there is an omnipotent God who knows when, where, and how "bad" things will happen to "good" people. He allows some of these bad things to happen because it teaches the otherwise good person a valuable lesson of some sort. My theory of the moment is that we live in a random, chaotic universe and sometimes through the luck (or bad luck) of the draw bad shit happens to people who don't deserve it, and vice versa. I know this is a hard pill for most people to swallow. Granted, there are plenty of bad/good things we bring on ourselves by making certain choices. But I'm talking about those things that are a case of being in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time.
So, what are the similarities between our theories? In both cases, quite frankly, shit happens and you either learn to deal with it or you take your life, become a junkie, whatever. In both theories the person learns something (and hopefully grows and becomes stronger) from the bad thing happening. The big difference is the lack of any kind of omnipotent God in my theory.
So I guess what I'm saying is, if bad shit is going to happen, and you're still going to learn from it, then why do you need a God running it all to explain it?
IMHO, chaos is scary, but it sure beats the whole "God works in mysterious ways" explanation.
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant by Maranda (saboneta@aol.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 12:48 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Kira,
There is a middle theological ground. Benjamin Franklin once coined the term "deitist" to describe those who believe in a God who created the world, but who also believe that God does not interfere much in our day-to-day lives. Deitists believe that God created the world and is sitting back watching what we do with it, but not messing with the free will of humans or influencing random chance.
Some Christian churches have held a Deitist perspective on God. The Unitarian church, before it joined with the Universalists (yes, they used to be separate) had ideas very similar to this at one time.
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 01:38 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I'd say my ground is somewhere between deism and mainstream Christianity (OK. seems like mainstream is being one of my favorite words recently. I need to find a new one!) I believe God leaves things alone unless you specifically ask Him to give you a hand. He won't just do things for you, but He will help you if you're willing to make an effort for yourself. But it's your decision, not His. That's what I think. I don't go for the chaotic world theory, because I don't think the universe is all that full of chaos. It seems too well designed to be the product of chance. But believe me, I tried not to believe in God. There were times in my life when I wished with all my heart that God didn't exist. But my head just wouldn't let me think that. So I believe in God. I would say "I know God exists," but I know that I don't know everything. I'll just say I'd bet my life on the existance of God. And His intrinsic goodness. |
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 04:24 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I was hoping to get a reaction like yours, full of gleeful anticipation of a theological debate! I was dreading getting a lot of replies full of theophobia and emotional reactions. Thankyou for your understanding!
I've tried to believe in the chaos theory, but personally I don't find the universe chaotic enough. I think it looks designed and planned. With some flaws, of course, but there's definitely Someone who made it. I define that Someone as God.
Then came the question - is God good, bad, or indifferent? I think if He were bad He would be a hell of a lot badder than we see. Which leaves good or indifferent.
To tell the truth, I couldn't tell. So I arbitrarily chose one, and I admit the most comfortable one, and decided to test it out. Which is what I've been doing for the last 3 years or so. And it seems to be holding water.
God is sentient and benevolent. I won't give specific examples of how I have found this out, but I have seen this in emotional, mental and physical ways. I have gone out on a limb over and over and never once have I put trust in God and been let down. This has happened far too many times for me to dismiss as coincidence.
On the other hand, for the brief period of time the past year that I completely rejected God, my life fell to little bitty pieces, everything backfired on me, and I ended up suicidal and nearly psychotic. Admitted my mistake, and now things are working out again.
This doesn't mean that I'm depending on God for a free ride. Anyone who thinks that trusting is easy hasn't tried it. And there's a lot of hard work involved, because God rarely puts His finger in unless we're doing our best, too. But He will fill in the gap when our best isn't enough, if we want Him to. That's what I've found.
I hope I'm not coming across as preachy. I don't want to force this on anyone. But it seems so common for people to express their anti-God views, that I feel there needs to be someone to balance it out. So here I am, resident Christian, doing my little thing! |
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 05:44 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | 3 things.
1) Cool for you! If your god works for you then enjoy it!
2) is it that you turned away from your god (i think that is the term that is used) or from yourself? Did you deny all that you are and try to be someone that you arent? was not being Christian a part of that or the whole of that? I am truly curious, not jsut trying to push buttons.
3) I understand that the prevelent disregard for your belief structure dismays you and makes you feel uncomfortable. I go through it everytime I see a movie, talk to the people at the grocery store etc. Try putting the shoe on the other foot. This is one of the few places where i can go and Im not hammered with hatred of my faith, where i can be free of the the shmengy bible-ness (that i know you dislike too.). Please understand that me resistant to christianity isnt aimed at you or your version of your faith. im sorry if I have come across that way.
Yes a public apology from callei..... very rare. |
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Sweet Shinibooboo! by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 05:49 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Hell, anything public or anything apologetic from Callei is rare anyway.
A combination of the two......
*walks to the door to check for the flying pigs* |
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Re: Sweet Shinibooboo! by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 06:03 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | remind me to hug you in public more often, especially if im dressed really silly (remember the stiped tights and plaid skirt the other day?)
and talk REALLY loud about your test scores and how i knew that teacher was wrong.
oh! and its still your turn to put away the dishes fuzzyhead......
my little Ebi (runs away giggling)
this probly isnt the place for this....... |
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Re: NOOOOOOOOO! by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 09:46 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | Comedian is my younger brother. My sweet little baby brother, apple of my eye. He is living with me now and, since we both geek, we have a bad tendancy to chase each other on the net and mess with each other.
Ebi is my nickname for him.... as in the sushi? shrimp? he's very tall now so its even more funny
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 07:14 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I've said it before and I'll say it again - you rock Callei!
I think I kind of turned from both God and myself. I think my belief in God is so intrinsic to my personhood that I couldn't give up on it without majorly scrambling my personality.
It seems that Christianity is one of the few things that it's still politically correct to bash. I get so sick of it, it's true.
And you've never made me feel bashed. There have been a few pointed anti-christian things that have been posted recently that have raised my shackles a little, but not ever from you. I feel your understanding of my position and I appreciate it. |
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant
by Shade on Jul 29, 2001 - 08:10 PM
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OK, I know I'm coming in rather late in the argument, and things are finally settling down, but I just have one question about your assertation that the christian god doesn't curtail free will. Wasn't the chistian devil punished (again) for giving free will (the knowledge of good and evil) to Adam and Eve who were in turn punished for wanting free will? Explain to me again how God just lets things happen?
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 29, 2001 - 08:44 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | Bettie? I think this one is to you..... A convert waiting to happen. (i am being humourous, this is intended to amuse) |
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant by Schizo on Jul 31, 2001 - 05:22 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Does the Knowledge of Good and Evil equate free will? Adam and Eve exerted free will before even tasting of that by deciding to taste it. God told them not to, they decided to, they did it, then they got the knowledge. That was free will.
I always thought that perhaps God intended them to know these things, but it wasn't time yet. Or that wasn't the way. I don't know. But that theory is carried out in C.S. Lewis's book Perelandra (from his Space Trilogy, which I very much enjoyed.)
I don't think Adam and Eve were punished for the sake of punishment. I think their rebellion against the source of Life naturally brought about death and decay. If you don't eat, you starve; starvation is not a punishment for not eating. |
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant
by gothvail (vail@gothicamateur.com)
on Feb 14, 2002 - 04:44 PM
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I am here to agree with you and be supportive. I, too, count myself a Christian. God does not make people do things, or make things happen, because that is not what God is about. Gid has given every last one of us the freedom to choose our own path and make our own decisions. If God makes us be good, how can it truely be good? How can we deserve punishment or reward in the afterlife if we cannot make choices regarding our actions? Yes, life can be hard and bad things can happen, but none of that matters because, if we do the right thing, and are strong in the face of all manner of adversity, we get to spend eternity in a good place. And THAT, my friends, is what it is all about.
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Re: The Resident Christian's Personal Rant by asja (persephone53@hotmail.com) on Apr 10, 2002 - 06:19 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I know this comes a couple of months after the whole argument kinda died but i agree with gothvail. Poeple fuck the world up not God, i think when Schizo was trying to say we can learn a lesson from it that she didn't mean that that made the bad things that happen to people ok. I think she just meant from the bad shit we do to eachother sometimes, it works for good or that something positive an eventually be gleaned form it. Someone brought up something about trying to explain to a mother whose child dies from the accident at Chernobyl that its a lesson or something and it shoukd be accepted, and that this is what Schizo was saying, but i think its more about recognising the horror of humanity and finding God in the middle of a human disaster. i don't know...just a thought. x |
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