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Articles: The Strength of Goth |
Posted by
callei on Wednesday, July 25, 2001 - 03:46 PM PST
Someone asked if goth is suffering from mainstream acceptance recently, being weakened by the hordes that flock to the goth banner. The idea struct me as truly strange.
Goth is about individualism, first and foremost. How can an individual be hurt by there being more individuals? (ok there are ways, Stalin being a nice example.)
Goth is about art, in all the forms of it that we can bring to life. Does art suffer from there being more art? Is that like air suffering because there is more air. Some air is better, and some worse, true. But art, and the creation thereof, is art.
Goth is about acceptance. Again this is something that helps people. Im not saying accept that all people are equal, they are not and it is silly and wasteful to try to make them be "equal". Im saying that all people are different and hooray for that. I dont have to like them, or they me. We just have to go around not killing each other about it.
A sidenote here. I dont mean tolerance. To tolerate is to judge, find wanting and allow to continue anyway. You tolerate the flu, bad teachers, and unpleasant food. You tolerate poisons like alcohol and nicotine. You may even tolerate bad bosses, if you need the money. You dont tolerate entire cultures, or arbitrary grouping of peoples. To tolerate is to denigrate (look it up). Everyone here knows that I am anti-xian. I dont tolerate them. I DO accept them. They are here, sharing my world, and must be dealt with on equal footing. They are my inferiors in all ways except sheer numbers (1 vs gawd knows how many) and capacity for violence. I will not pretend that they are less or more than what they are.
But back to goth. Does goth need to be "strong", or to flex that strength? Goth is as strong as it ever was, however "Strong" that maybe. How can we define this strength? by numbers? by visibilty? by teen pregnancy rates? How does the subculture of artists define thier strength? How does the subculture of surfers define its strength?
Does a subculture need to be be "strong"? It is a part of the main culture, a subset of prevailing beliefs and mores. It excludes parts of the main culture and adds a few bits that are unacceptable to the host culture.
I am one of those bits. I am counter-culture and goth. Goth is my venue for cultural acceptance. I can only accept the main culture through the filter of this subculture. I will never be accepted by the main culture of our country, nor will I accept it. We are ememies. Goth is where we come to parley, to work out temperary truces.
Goth is as strong as I need it to be. I am as strong as I need to be. 'Nough said
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The Strength of Goth | Login/Create an account | 23 Comments |
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Re: The Strength of Goth
by Schizo on Jul 25, 2001 - 06:24 PM
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The problem with being too widely accepted is that it makes it easier for people to want to pretend to be you. Which I find annoying. Which is why I hope goth never becomes so accepted as to be trendy. I wouldn't say it hurts me, but it bugs me, and I don't like being bugged, strangely enough.
If goth is about individualism, then it can be hurt by people just "becoming goth" to be considered cool.
If goth is about art, then the purity of that art can be sullied by pseudo-art. Just like mainstream art is sullied by department-store prints.
I think more of what I was talking about was trendiness than acceptance. But trendiness often follows acceptance, which is what scares me about too much acceptance. Again, trendiness won't hurt me per se, but it will annoy the hell out of me.
Goth as a culture is a strong as the people who inhabit it. No matter how great that culture is, it is suceptible to the diseases of all cultures. History shows repeatedly that complacency in a culture brings rot. Goth in an individual's heart is as strong as that person, but I was talking about the goth culture. Perhaps one could think of the "strength" of goth as one would think of the "strength" of wine. Do we want it watered down? I for one appreciate the potency of goth as a heady and potent wine. I would be disappointed to have that diluted. And I fear it is becoming so. But my own personal strength as a goth is unaffected.
That is what I feel and am trying to express. I accept your point of view, Callei, as valid, and in fact in many ways I agree with you. But I still find room for concern in the approaching trendiness of the culture.
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Re: The Strength of Goth by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 25, 2001 - 09:02 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | You comment got me thinking. Or really my response to your comment got me thinking about the idea goth as a subculture or counterculture and all the arguements that i have heard or read about that.
I wasnt actually going after your views, or trying to belittle them. I agree that trends are bad.
I dont know that I agree about the complacency, I think that trend followers are the least complacent people that I have ever met. They seem so nervous about what they are doing, wanting, wearing, owning whatever the trend is. I dont see goths getting complacent about the violence that still happens. i know no goths that are complacent about the influx of silly people wearing funny clothes.
I deplore the trend of trends. I think they make people unstable in a bad way, make them think that they are never good enough, make them spend money that they dont have, make them feel insecure in silly ways, generally make them hurt themselves to be something that doesnt and cant exisit.
I see your point about department store art. Wall-Mart is not a gallery.
i see you point about watering wine.
In both cases, you get what you pay for. cheap, imitation art, food, wine, housing, whatever cheapness the experience, if you know that there is better.
cheap, immation goths are fun to tease, a pain in the backside, and the albitross around the neck of the image that the media has created for us all. As that image isnt "real" or correct, I find it funny that they are distorting the image that they built in the first place!
It can also be a gateway to better food, wine, etc.
I guess i see the trend as immaterial. It has happened before. It will happen again. Punk was a trend for awhile. skater was a trend. Mod was a trend for a while. Gangsta is a trend. Hippie, beatnik, yuppie. in all cases there were people that were *fill in the blank* before the trend and stayed that way after the trend ended.
I hate to think of the wreakage that will follow, but in all truth, its not like the media can make our "image" any worse that it used to be. we used to be child molesting, baby sacrificers that did heroin, and beat up old ladies. we used to be all that was wrong with the world. Now the gansta's have that label and I feel for them. Its a lousy label to have to wear. |
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Acceptance? by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 25, 2001 - 09:10 PM (User info | Send a Message) | "But trendiness often follows acceptance, which is what scares me about too much acceptance. Again, trendiness won't hurt me per se, but it will annoy the hell out of me. "
So, you're saying that acceptance of Goth would sully the "goth atmosphere", because with acceptance Goth would automatically become a trend....
Let's say for a moment a trend is a consistent pattern among a small population of people towards a similar belief, custom, slang, or style.
But a deviance from that trend creates a schism among that population, and draws attention to the deviants. As that deviance becomes more noticeable among the population, it becomes more accepted because it is not such a taboo to be a deviant from the norm-- the very line that defines the norm becomes an integrated image where the deviants are pictured alongside the norm.
What interests me in your post is the use of "acceptance." Do you believe that the acceptance of the goth subculture would destroy the taboo of being in the subculture?
Do you fear acceptance because this was a way of rebellion for you? Or is it some sexual proclivity? By removing fear and mystery from the goth subculture, does that remove the taboo and mystery of the subculture you attached yourself to?
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Re: Acceptance? by Schizo on Jul 26, 2001 - 05:45 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Acceptance is fine. But the next step IS trendiness. I DO like standing out in a crowd, although that is not the real reason I "became goth". And I do think that it seems that goth is becoming the next trend, at least in my area. For example, piercings, although not intrinsically goth, are no longer odd, but are now so common that you'll see hordes of little Gap-clad mall rats going to get their eyebrow or tongue or navel done. Acceptance is good as a removal of violence and prejudice, but it is dangerous because the next step for maistream society to do is not just accept, but claim for thier own. This would be wonderful if they would claim the heart goth, but they won't. Just the outside trappings. The thought makes me sick to my stomach - all the little skin-goths running around, and people mistaking me for that. It's starting, at least where I am, and I'm sure you've found it too. |
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That is, if a trend does not overtake goth on the queue of "soon to become trends" by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 26, 2001 - 09:38 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Peircings have been around forever, babs. Hell, if you want to argue this around peircings, goth is a trendmongering bitch from the Minoan tribes. But it's not, it's about a mentality.
As for me finding it too, well, I hate to admit this on this particular board, but by all accounts-- I'm not goth. I think.
And what about the outside trappings? They ARE stylish. Who could blame the populous for wanting them? Geez, dressing in black has worked for ages. It goes with anyone's skin tone. Doesn't matter how twisted or gnarled your frame is, you'll always fill out in a black suit.
On last note: why DID you become goth? It should probably be asked as a whole other section of chat, and hear the heart-wrenching tales of all the people on this board, but why did you become goth, in particular? the way you speak about it, it seems like this is something more than a lifestyle for you, yet you don't adopt everything attached to it.
And if anyone wants to know why I post here and I'm not goth, well, it's fun. Because you people are so un-goth! I haven't heard one discussion of "are we really alive?" yet or any mention of Charles Addams at all. |
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Re: That is, if a trend does not overtake goth on the queue of by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 04:03 AM (User info | Send a Message) | I know there's nothing new under the sun. I know piercings aren't exclusively goth. But they haven't become popular in mainstream America until recently. I know black clothes are classy. But there's a difference between corporate black and "goth" black.
And why should I "adopt" any part of any lifestyle? I'm not interested in any one lifestyle per se. I call myself a goth because it's a quick label that gives people an idea of who I am, just like Christian. But the problem with labels is that people then expect you to be their idea of a goth or a Christian. I don't care about that. I'm me. I like black. I like a dark room lit by a candle. I like shadows more than direct sunlight. I've always liked that, even before I had any clue what goth was. Then I got to know a girl who is as goth as they come. Got me interested. Started realizing that we thought in many ways along the same lines. Started looking around on the web. Found this website. Thought hard and finally realized that it fit. And that's my little story, in brief. |
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As opposed to....? by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 08:12 AM (User info | Send a Message) | As opposed to the girl whose friend showed her a glamour mag when she was 12? She wanted to be like all the big girls, and get the cute guys, and be beautiful. It didn't have to do with barbie in the thinking recesses of her mind. It didn't have to do with the mob mentality in America today of thin, lean, and waifish. It didn't have anything to do with the outside forces acting on her in particular to become the beauty queen.
That little girl grew up into a beautiful young woman. She stayed in the clique, was adored by the guys, and was throwing up in the bathroom after dinner. She was identified as 'buelemic' by her friends. But not in her mind. In her mind, she was staying on the bloody fucking edge of the style, my friend.
This little girl died. Or maybe she was murdered. Or maybe it was suicide. As the old song goes, "one thing leads to another," and another was the tip of the razor that she was bleeding herself on to be better in gymnast classes. Or the boy friend she was losing 3 pounds to try and get in steady with. This little girl died believing she was i, she was so hip she couldn't see over her pelvis, and this girl died alone, afraid, and misunderstanding her own futile life.
Or maybe it held some value for her.
My question is, are you doing the same on a morbidity level? |
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Re: As opposed to....? by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 02:14 PM (User info | Send a Message) | If I were doing the same on a morbidity level, I would be indulging in self-destructive behavior to further my self-image. The only thing I am indulging in for the sake of my self-image is brutal self-honesty.
The label of "goth" has not changed me one bit. I visited the old graveyards before the "transformation". I actually haven't been to one for months. I watched the ballet of Dracula at least a year earlier. But I haven't rented any vampire movies now or ever. I have loved the color black for a long time. Nothing has changed except for the aquisition of a convenient label and a little more courage to be what I want to be, and not what most of the people I know want to be.
I don't cut myself. I don't do wierd drugs. I don't drink red wine all night long (except to celebrate passing the goth test!) I help my boyfriend take care of his kids when they visit, I look for a job, I visit my old church friends, I clean the house, I do very sane, normal, unmorbid things. And I don't indulge in depression. I get depressed at times, but I don't like to stay there.
I really don't know what it is you were trying to tell me with your little story. It is very sad and touching, but it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, as far as I can see. |
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Relate all stories to yourself. Let the moral relate to your life. by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 08:48 PM (User info | Send a Message) | The little girl died thinking she was something she wasn;t, and something she wasn't happy being. She died for an illusion to herself-- it was an illusion that held meaning, but meaning for her alone-- nothing any 'normal' person these days values.
Are you sure you didn't become "goth" just for the same reasons that you're hoping other people don't join it for? Because it seemed like a convinient label, and you wanted to associate with the people within goth because they seemed to be having fun with it, while you were doing the things they were doing alone, but not getting anything out of it?
Another thing is the vocabulary you use describing how goth you are. "Transformation,", for describing when you became goth-- when you said your behavior didn't change.
"Then, of course, Dad had to chime in with his 2 cents worth. "Read your Bible and be led!" he shouted from the livingroom. Like you have, sir? So you were led to beat and abuse your wife and shoot at imaginary people? So you are led to sit around the house and live off of her hard work? So you were led to nearly ruin my life, and leave me so broken that I tried to commit suicide when I was 19? Like hell I'm going to take one bit of advice you give me!"
I'm glad you found forgiveness for him. This is very Goth sentiment. Many children are driven to be goth because it deviates so far from what their parents were. And usually they become goth because most of it is tied with not being christian.
Rebellion.
"Then were the society queens, who walked around with their perfect makeup and model-worthy clothes. Even though they looked like they stepped out of vogue, they seemed so empty. I can't even imagine how someone could really love them. They are nothing but a beautiful shell. Then come the freaks. Beautiful, beautiful freaks. Oh, the firecracker hair colors, the piercings, the creative use of dress! I would just watch and watch, taking pictures of the ones who really carried it off, as perfect in their own way as the models, but far realer. I am proud to class myself among these (the freaks, anyway, I don't know about the beautiful!)"
To prize yourself among the freaks. What a noble goal. To be an outsider in society, to walk around the edge and hurl taunts and be taunted at because you aren't the normal little thang they expected you to be growing up. Again, rebellion. Maybe not rebellion, but a fear of having a doppleganger out there, somewhere in the nrom society, when being an individual these days is considered to be such a prized thing. To be unique. To be a rebel.
But only a rebel without a clue rebels to be unique. Because isn't that what every rebel does to become unique?
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Re: Relate all stories to yourself. Let the moral relate to your life. by Schizo on Jul 28, 2001 - 01:10 AM (User info | Send a Message) | I'm sure. I don't even hang out with goths. My friend who introduced me to the concept of goth has drifted out of my life with the aquisition of a new job. My boyfriend carries me into different circles than any others I have ever experienced, and they are not goth. Except for this website, I'm as much on my own as I ever was. It doesn't matter. This isn't about other people. I enjoy the company of other goths, but I also see the danger of the influence of very strong personalities on the integrity of my own personality. I am a loner by nature, and I remain that.
The word "goth" is a convenient label. The way of life labeled as goth is one I have lived all my life without knowing the name. The help involved in the name is knowing that it is not a sickness, or something I can hide. My normalcy doesn't have to be most everyone elses. It's OK. Although, I must admit, it's a fun way of life to delve deeper into, even as a sort of hobby. But I would not do that if the heart were not there also.
The word "transformation" was used tongue-in-cheek. Any real transformation was mostly in the area of finally planting my feet and being true to what I thought was beautiful and enjoyable, not what my friend Penny or cousin Lisa thought. And the transformation was also in the eyes of others, who were not used to this new determination, and were intimidated by the name. But I don't think I have adopted any tastes or beliefs or ambitions that did not have seeds in my own heart from the beginning.
Was the word forgive used in sarcasm? Do you think that forgiveness means restoration? Or pretense? My father was never a father to me. Forgiveness does not restore him to that role. My father was never someone I could trust or look up to. Forgiveness does not pretend that now he is a fount of wisdom and knowledge, or that the past never happened. Forgiveness means that I am no longer trying to hurt him for the past. I have let go of the past. In the present, I still have to deal with a man naturally repugnant to me who thinks he has a right to tell me how to live. He does not. I have learned from his past actions, seen that his nature has not changed, and base my decisions accordingly. And I avoid him because he is an unpleasant person. Not because I hate him.
And goth is not far at all from where my parents are. Both of them have strong goth tendencies, as does my older brother. It is obvious to me that my "gothishness" is honestly come by, between the bent of the family, and the dark experiences I have gone through. As I am 24, this has little to do with rebellion. My parents have long since ceased to be a driving force in my decision making processes.
Perhaps I was a little judgemental in my assessing of the trendy and the freaks. I have nothing against people who dress well. I do have something agains people whose clothes are perfect and whose expressions look straight through you. There is a difference. You CAN tell a society queen, and there are few things emptier or sadder. Their appearance may seem flawless, but I cannot find the beauty.
Of course, there are freaks and freaks. There are those who throw insults at "normal" people. I personally haven't met any. I was talking about those with the courage to wear non-designer clothing. Like the girl, a little round, but wearing an odd little black dress that skimmed her curves, and with her carrot-red hair in several braids. She carried it off with dignity and charm. She is my prime example of the "freak" of courage, taste, and creativity. Line her up next to the girl with a model's body, wearing her capri pants and halter top. Which is more truly beautiful?
The red-headed girl is but one example of many I saw that day. And all in all, the creativity of the "freaks" overpowered the conformity of the "society queens" in a way that made me very proud to carry that label in the minds of the people who saw me. I wouldn't call it a goal of mine. But it is somewhere I am
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Re: The Strength of Goth
by Maranda (saboneta@aol.com)
on Jul 26, 2001 - 05:51 AM
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Before one can discuss how strong Goth is, one must have a good definition of what Goth is. As I've proposed before, Goth is about the process of honoring those elements of human existence that the mainstream surface culture disowns. If this is correct, then Goth is exactly as strong as the mainstream culture's desire to cast away unwelcome elements-- which would make Goth very strong indeed.
By this criteria, Goth will not weaken (although it may change names and appearances) until mainstream culture decides to recognize and honor-- not "tolerate"-- all facets of human experience. This probably won't happen anytime soon.
One powerful tool in the bonding of large groups, including Goths, is a shared sentiment of exclusion. If we as a group are this, then we are different from those who are that. This process of definition defines nations, religions, political parties, families and subcultures. And as long as this sentiment remains, there will always be a group-- like Goths-- who embody the opposite.
I would also argue that even the "posers" in heavy makeup who don't understand Goth at all are still part of this embodiment. Why didn't they become surfers, or jocks, or Young Republicans? Why do they choose to identify with a reviled subculture like Goth? Because in their deep subconscious, perhaps they are choosing to honor what the dominant culture denies. That, or society's collective unconscious demands that a certain number of people take up this mantle, and the "posers" are filling out the numbers without truly understanding why..
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Re: The Strength of Goth by Schizo on Jul 26, 2001 - 06:22 AM (User info | Send a Message) | What if people become "posers" because it's the thing to do? And is Goth still so reviled? It isn't really where I am. Here, it is perilously close to a trend. A small New Hampshire village, and even anti-social me who has only lived here 2 years can identify at least 5 or 6 other goths by name. And it's not a case of goth attracting goth, because by appearances I was just a normal American girl when I met them. I know of a couple more by sight, but don't know their names. And believe me, I don't go ANYWHERE in this town. There may be more, I just don't have the opportunity to see them. And the number of people who get piercings, or put temporary dye in their hair are increasing exponentially.
I agree - dressing goth does not make you goth. True goth will remain undiluted no matter what happens. But goth as the general populace sees it will spread and become like dye in a pool of water, if things go the way they seem. It is becoming more and more popular. And whether we like it or not, it affects us. Just like the popularity of so-called Christians affects the real heart Christians. I don't consider nominal Christians to be real Christians, but most people do, and don't bother to make a differentiation. It can happen with nominal goths and heart goths, too. I've been through it. It's shitty. And I can see it happening in the goth culture in my area. And I hate the thought. |
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Re: The Strength of Goth by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 26, 2001 - 10:40 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | I know what you mean now, i really do. The commercialization of goth. The idea that you can pay money to become one of the cool, and cool is goth. Doent matter that goth inst "cool" they are making it so. Doesnt matter that you cant buy ideals and beliefs, they are making you think you can.
In that i agree that there is some kind of paralel with some religions, even christianity.
the T.Vangelicals tell you that you can buy gods love, Hot Topic tells you that you can buy coolness.
The average Christian message is "we will accept you", the media says that that is goth's message as well.
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The flow of words comming from my head when i think of the goth culture
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com)
on Jul 26, 2001 - 05:03 PM
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its funny.. not to put a big look at me or anything.. but I am who i am. I have always been like this.. my parents encoraged me to be this way.. I am a artist and i am very passionate about everything.. then one day.. my dad is in a comic store and he was explaining to the guy behind the counter about how his daughter is a really intense artist and such.. and the guy coined the werd goth as describing me. funny little memory.. being twelve and learning you have a label.
Goth.. i believe..is not about how sexual you are in a tight corset with cleavage up to your chin.. goth is NOT sex. Goth is not Vampires. Goth is not Marilyn manson. Goth is Not shooting people in a public high school.
Goth is Intelligence.. Goth is Art.. Goth is Inspiration Goth is Buety and brilliance...
And True real goth people are the ones who have a taste of the fun things and Know the hardships of being diffrent.
There is so much more to being goth then that i cant really describe.. but when communicating with other goths, REAL goths ,not some dumb pimped up whore in a tight black dress and messy makeup all over her face but really real goths.. you can look at each other.. and just KNOW.
Again.. i have been in a positivly rotten mood today.. and i appologize for my bitterness.. but i am finding alot of people that are claming to be gothic and giving our culture a rotten name.
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Re: The flow of words comming from my head when i think of the goth culture by feralucce on Jul 26, 2001 - 05:12 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www16.brinkster.com/gohticart | I agree whole heartedly... I could not have chosen more apt words for this...
after the columbine incident... I have many problems... mostly caused by drunken frat rats that felt that they should "make it up to those kid's families..."
and not even the people in the "scene" even seem to udnerstand...
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Re: The flow of words comming from my head when i think of the goth culture by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 06:09 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | I think some of us are insulated from THAt sort of shmeng. we don't talk to those kinds of people, or something. But I do remember being nervous after that high school went mad. the media made such a big deal about the black trench coats. I remember going out for awhile only in packs since large groups of people are harder to attack.
It was a resurgence of the old hatreds. |
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*nods* by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 06:31 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I guess when most of the world is narrow minded... *sighs* such a pity it is... |
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Re: *nods* by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 08:37 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | Most of the world seems to like to live in fear. Fear of death, fear of poverty, fear of faliure, fear of love, fear of success, fear of the future, fear of the past, fear of strangers, fear of family, fear of being alone, fear of others, fear of spiders (ok thats just a few of us), fear of the unknown.
there is the root I think, fear of the unknown. Maaybe that is what Goth is all about....
the art of loving the unknown.... instead of fearing it. |
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YES!!! by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com) on Jul 28, 2001 - 05:56 AM (User info | Send a Message) | You have a very very good point. maybe that is what it is.. I have noticed the lot of us have a dark sense of humor but i think that was evolved by taking the bad things like a grain of salt.. and making us stronger for the worse things.. know what i mean? |
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Re: The Strength of Goth
by Mavdora (ellagoth@hotmail.com)
on Aug 06, 2001 - 02:12 PM
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Just a thank you message to Callei for this members correct and inspiring words towards the Gothic Empire. After being Goth for 6 years of my life and constantly fighting off the stupid stereotype I believe we need more people that think such as yourself to bring it to the attenion of the public that TRUE Gothism is not about dressing in black 24/7 and listening to the bleedin' Sisters of Mercy. Callei I'm Mavdora please email me with more of your views at: ellagoth@hotmail.com and check out my profile. :)
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Re: The Strength of Goth by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Aug 07, 2001 - 09:43 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | I thanks you for the praise. Its always nice to be praised for an idea.
FOr the record.....Im not saying that it isnt goth the wear black 24/7 and know all the words and moves to all the Sister's songs. That just means that you like the Sisters and have/had alot of freetime....as a goth.
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