|
|
Currently no members online:)
You are an anonymous user. You can register for free by clicking here |
We have 66 guests online !
|
|
|
|
|
Theories: Prophets and Messiahs |
Posted by
Devin on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 05:41 AM PST
It seems to me the fundamental difference between christianity, islam, and judiasm is the disagreement over who is a prophet and who is a messiah. It's interesting that this simple difference can pile up so many other disagreements over what god really said and whatnot - but I have an even more interesting question I've been thinking about.
While everyone's waiting for a first or second coming of the messiah, and waiting for more prophets to tell them what's really up, has anyone considered that it may no longer be possible to have prophets or messiahs in the 21st century?
Nowadays most of the people who have direct communication with the almighty are safely restrained in mental institutions. The few that manage to stay out of those places are either killed by the ATF, or get a big head from all the people that send money to their TV programs, and can no longer tell the difference between what they think and what god says.We haven't really had any new universally accepted prophets in quite a long time.
Even the idea of latter day saints makes most people want to laugh and load their gun. Back in the day, it was a little easier to get yourself a prophet or messiah title. Gathering some followers, doing some neet tricks, and maybe dying for your people would pretty much set you up. Look what Jesus managed to do and how he pulled it off. I'm sure any Jim Jones or David Coresh could have pulled off a similar feat in that world - but look at how they were recieved in the 20th century. And even Jesus didn't really fare all that well. 2 out of 3 major western religions surveyed don't call him the messiah. Moses has a better prophet score card, but I doubt he'd do so well in the 21st century himself.
So if by chance I was to meet a prophet on the street and not give him any spare change, how would I know? What are the modern criteria for a messiah? Why have David Coresh, Jim Jones, or Ghandi not been nominated for messiah or even prophet status?
We have to assume based on history (take Jesus for example) that most people will NOT like or agree with most messiah's and prophets while they are alive. Most people will think of them and their followers as a delusional cult. If you assume this, you have to agree that statistically, chances are pretty good that you are going to be one of those people, so you're not really qualified to comment on this question.
But I'm sure you will anyway.
|
|
| |
|
|
This article has not been rated
|
|
|
|
|
|
Prophets and Messiahs | Login/Create an account | 11 Comments |
| Comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content. |
Re: Prophets and Messiahs
by Schizo on Sep 23, 2001 - 06:17 AM
(User info | Send a Message)
|
Ironically enough, the church I used to belong to believed that their founder, a Baptist minister who split off from the church in the late 1800's, was Elijah the Prophet, who was supposed to appear before the return of Christ. Both Jesus and John the Baptist were asked if they were Elijah, and both refused the title.
The church has been called a cult for this reason. I call it a borderline cult.
Whether or not this guy really was a prophet is beyond me. He died a few months before my mother was born, so I never met him. I do know that I can't stand his great-grandson, who runs the Bible School I used to attend.
The main problem I have with this issue is not the man himself, but the way some people think about him. They seem to put him next thing to God, and take his opinions on life above their own. When I was a teenager, I really believed he was a prophet. Now I don't care. I just wish people would remember that, prophet or not, he was a human being, subject to all kinds of errors and emotions like the rest of us. Even the Biblical prophets were flawed, and the Bible doesn't mind showing that. Even the original Elijah, even John the Baptist. And I think the Bible's interpretation is flexible on purpose, because every person's life is subtly different. But there are people I know who give this man an honor and a position that they fail to give anyone else in history. And that's not right.
He may have been a prophet, or a looney, or a con artist. But frankly, I don't give a damn. It's my responsibility, and mine alone how I want to think and act, and it's a cop out to pass that on to any man, living or dead. The only person worth taking orders from automatically would be God Himself, if you believe He knows everything and cares what happens to you. But definitely not a mere man.
|
[ No anonymous comments ]
[ No anonymous comments ]
Re: Prophets and Messiahs by Schizo on Sep 24, 2001 - 03:57 AM (User info | Send a Message) | You guessed right! It was the "old minister guy." Sorry to everyone if I didn't make it clear.
I love Flem too!!! It's become a morning ritual for me. |
[ No anonymous comments ]
[ No anonymous comments ]
Re: Prophets and Messiahs
by Rogue (judenouveau@yahoo.com)
on Sep 24, 2001 - 08:32 AM
(User info | Send a Message)
|
The problem with the prophet thing is knowing when to stop. The Samaritans (a non-prophet organisation) stopped before any of the prophets, the Jews stopped after a few prophets, the Christians added a prophet or two, and the Muslims (the most prophetable of my examples) added one with the stipulation that he was the last one. Each group thinks the others are wrong for either listening to a false prophet (i.e. having more prophets than you...like the 5-year-old on the playground, "oh yeah, well i didn't want your stinky old prophet anyway!") or by not listening to the word of G*d as relayed by the newer prophets (same five-year-old, "my prophet can beat up your prophet anyday and twice on Sunday!"). With each new prophet you risk following the wrong guy or not following the right guy, depending on your choice, and you don't know which was right for centuries, if ever.
What nobody gets is the possibility that maybe, just maybe there are different prophets and books and what not because we have different groups of people. What language you speak and what culture surrounds you will colour your perception of everything in your life. Accordingly, if G*d wanted to talk to all people on the planet he would not do it with one vaguely-written text, but with a different message tailored to the different cultural perspectives that rule the people. Edward Saphir will have different impression than Benjamin Whorf, because they grew up in different backgrounds.
In my opinion, each group of people that can be distinguished from another group and that has pursued spiritual enlightenment has been contacted by whatever they needed the divine to be. They were given what they needed to guide them, including a small piece of the big picture. It is wrong for a people to adopt the beliefs of another people the same as it is wrong for a people to try and make others adopt their beliefs. The reason (and the punchline to the biggest joke in history) is that each group has their part of the big picture, and that we as a species will not get the big picture until we can learn to all have our beliefs and modalities without oppressing anybody else because they don't have the same ones as us. In short, only after we learn to play nicely and share (things they teach you in kindergarten, so everybody knows it, right?) can we begin to notice that we all have a little piece of the big picture. Once we have done this we can assemble the big picture and will achieve global enlightenment, but this will not happen if religion X kills religion Y or religion Z succeeds in converting all of religion W to their way of thinking, because we will lose pieces of the whole if we do that. Not until we learn to celebrate and accept diversity can we progress, and this is a good thing because we really shouldn't have certain knowledge if we are ignorant and likely to use in for hateful purposes.
|
Re: Prophets and Messiahs
by Arthegarn on Sep 25, 2001 - 03:19 PM
(User info | Send a Message)
|
Yeah, you are right
But I say so for my own reasons. If Virgin Mary was to appear before me, with a legion of the Celestial Army, all seraphs and cherubs singing around, etc, etc, etc, I would not become a prophet. I would run the hell to the nearest psychiatrist and tell hir I have seen too much Ally Mc Beal and are having visions.
I tend to agree with RogeCoder... but I am too tired to outline it today
Arthegarn
|
Prophet? Profit did you say?
by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com)
on Oct 01, 2001 - 11:23 PM
(User info | Send a Message)
|
To live is to have strength. This seems simple enough; you live, you affect your world. But what is real strength?
Bertha Knicks will die in three years' time. Her estate will be divided, her children will move on. She had a kind of strength; she persevered through three laborious birthing experiences, a divorce, and a life alone and full of fear. But she persevered. But she will die. And so will her memory.
How many people here remember their ancestry, their home? True, true, we are all brothers in christ, but who remembers their great grand uncle? I remember mine, sometimes. He was one of the researchers who constructed the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima.
What do I mean, rambling like this? Well, my uncle had a strength of a certain kind, too. He will be vilified by some people. But he has had a long-lasting affect on history. Some might measure the strength of a person by the dent they leave on the cosmic-cab-ride we call life. Ever see a child carve "Jagged Jimmy J was here {insert date here}" into a desk at his school? Displays of strength. What do all men desire? Strength.
Our lives will pass, unnoticed, if we do not demonstrate our strength, our ability to affect time for now and years to come. This is what being a prophet is all about. Why can prophets visualize the future? Because they make it so. They make their realities and prophecies come true by will and charisma and a driving ambition and lust for strength that will shape history around them.
"Jesus" had that strength. A2000 year old virgin still dictates the way of life for some people. And some people have a mental preconception that they can't do what he did. What did he do? Wht did Ghandi do? What did J.R. Bob Dobbs, or Ivan Stang do? What did Hitler do? What did Hitler do?
They displayed strength. Ambition made them men that will forever be remembered in history, for better or for worse.
I will not diverge into spiritual healing, "magic(or any of it's poor-english-usage derivatives here, because I will assume that most of you are intelligent enough to realize there is a time and a place enough for that, and this is neither the time, the board, or the location)", divination, gods or goddesses. Since this discussion is about the men who make themselves legends. Think about what difference there is between a messiah and a legend. A legend takes credit for himself, a proophet gives credit to the invisible wall. Nobody likes a braggart, but everybody likes a humble man.
|
Re: Prophet? Profit did you say? by Rogue (judenouveau@yahoo.com) on Oct 02, 2001 - 11:52 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Testify, brother Comedian! Your post was true and well-founded, but it assumes some things about human nature that have not proven themselves to be omnipresent.
If everyone could just stand up and recognise the strength they have, that would be great. If everyone could act with moral fortitude (share toys, play nice, just like kindergarten) and honesty and strength, that would be divine. The problem arises when cowardly people try to act with strength, a true inner strength that they think they lack, giving them the perceived requirement of bluffing and oppressing others in order to provide evidence of their own strength.
Religion, in theory, provides people with the idea that they either have strength within them or that their cosmic boss can give them strength. In reality the strength is theirs, but they needed guidance to find it. For those that can't believe in what they can't see, prophets/gurus/heroes provide a tangible guidance and proof that a person can achieve great things if (s)he accepts his|her own abilities and acts with confidence. These prophets, etc need to give credit to the invisible wall, because then everybody can believe that the wall will help them as well and they can activate the power within themselves. If the gurus took credit for themselves, the masses would just think their achievements were flukes and out of the reach of most.
Everything i just said about religion applies to majjiq or however you want to spell the esoteric arts, since they also provide a framework for empowerment and an external method for obtaining the power.
Unfortunately, religion is often used by coward pretenders to subjugate others and support their illusions of strength. This negates its positive effect that would otherwise be empowering the masses on a daily basis. Religion makes up for this shortcoming to a degree by imposing an external moral code on its followers, which means that if you need a religion to empower you (and thus your mind is probably too weak or too self-deprecating to self-empower), you will also be likely to accept the forced morals that will keep your power constructive in most cases. If you don't need religion for your power, you probably have a mind that will use the power responsibly. (Yes, it is possible to have religion and not need it for empowerment, but this is rarely seen.)
In the perfect world, every person would believe in themselves enough that they would not need anyone to tell them where to find their power. They would also not need to believe that the power was given to them by ritual or righteousness, or even worse, a person. In the perfect world, these self-empowered people would be conscientious and have no desire to harm other people, thus using any power they have for constructive purposes. The world, however, is not perfect, so we have messianic traditions about people who are supposed to make the world perfect for us without any work on our part.
What we need to do as a species is realise that it is the responsibility of each and every individual to activate and exercise their power to its fullest extent in a positive way, to refuse to allow negative actions to propagate, and to show as many others as possible the way to this enlightenment. Until we achieve this, we will need systems that provide external power and morals to keep the masses from spiralling into chaos. From these masses there can rise a group of individuals that transcends all this and gets the big picture, and these individuals must work together to raise up each other and as many commoners as possible.
Being weak and led around by the nose is easy. Being strong and laughing at the great unwashed masses from a hilltop is easy. Being strong and enlightened, and strengthening/enlightening others, now there's the measure of a great individual.
|
[ No anonymous comments ]
Re: Prophet? Profit did you say? by Anonymous-Coward on Nov 20, 2001 - 06:53 PM | I would just like to state that I think FLEM rules as well, and all women who read FLEM are hot babes who don't get the righteous amounts of heinously sinful sex they deserve.
J. Grant
Creator of something or other. |
[ No anonymous comments ]
Re: Prophet? Profit did you say? by Anonymous-Coward on Feb 18, 2004 - 02:24 AM | Wow..Yall sound like the Judean peoples front (in the life of brian-by monty python).
Some one once told me that "Heaven is not to be experienced, but is to be remembered".
Was Jesus a virgin?? He must have jerked off a lot. Poor guy.
I wonder..would he still have died for our sins if he knew how good sex was? Idunnnu
Anyways, what was I gonna say.. .
I was gonna say that there are lots of things that are to be "remembered". Religion offers little gratification..that's the problem.
"Remember not to sin!" - that's mentality talking.
But truth offers satistfaction, guaranteed.
Many of those who call themselves gods servants do not believe in godly evidence. Because they themselves do not knock on doors.
How are we to "remember" what we know not of?
People need to knock.
This truth is open to every one who seeks it.
You just need to knock on doors.
Be brave.
And knock on doors.
Truth does not come with any price.
Its a shame people are made to think they have to be mentally schooled and accept a mentality we call religion, in order to find truth and see god.
God is opened to all!
And I dont know if Jesus mother was a virgin.. If Jesus was "immaculate". But love is immaculate. And we can all let love in to our hearts.
And I know that is what he did.
We need to realise that we are but tourists in gods country. Immigrants! And we need to learn so speak his language.
One complaint.. Jesus did call himself the shepherd.. and he called people "sheep".. when using a metaphor to explain something.
I know he didnt mean anything by it.. He wasnt saying people are less than him.. And I know earthly expressions are limited. .. But I reckon he was a little cocky. :-D
He wasnt just humble. He would say stuff like "Get behind me satan". If Eddie Murphy would have been there.. He would have added "Get behind me satan, n fuck me up the ass!".
Since you mentioned "magic".. I thought I'd say that magic is based on the idea that mind cannot affect matter.
You're right about the strenght deal.. Arnold swarzenigger (spelling?) is the governor of California!
Think about that shit..
The moral perhaps being that:
One displayed form of strenght, and further motivation.. can give you real power.
The difference is.. Most people display the strenght of man. But Jesus also displayed the strenght of god. When giving credit, he was truthful.
Am I wrong to say millions of people believe in the miracles of Christ? Walking on water etc..
There is good reason to believe it was true.
Jesus had Charisma etc etc etc.. Who do you think you are? :-D A judge at a little miss america contest?
If god is the father, and we are the children.. He needs to wear condoms. That's what I say.
The bomb dropped on hiroshima ended the war? You think?
Did the 21st century stop god?
I dont think so. People will knock on doors. They will ring on the bell. They will tap on the window too! If he don come out tonight, when the moon is bright, Im gonna knock n ring and tap until you do..
Im gonna knock n ring n tap n Im gonna ring n tap and knock Im gonna knock and ring and tap.. ..uhm.. sorry..that old song.. got in my head.
/shmooth |
[ No anonymous comments ]
|
|