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Re: Another random collection of thoughts.
by Arthegarn on Jul 06, 2004 - 12:50 AM
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Feral, I am not discussing that. I am actually saying you are right about Irak's (roughly) mixed feelings. I am saying most of the people don't want you there. I agree.
I don't agree with the other idea, that you shouldn't be where you are not welcome. Spanish troops were pretty welcome in Irak (I have never served in the military but a lot of my friends do and several have been there) under the circumstances. And anyway here we go again. It's pretty easy to manipulate the people. It's damned easy. Iraqui people are looking for a cheap way out, so you blame everything on the Americans and that is something they like to hear, something they are willing to accept.
You say it's not your business to prevent a civil war there... Back to Monroe Doctrine, are we? These ideas are not realistic. A civil war in Iraq would affect the stability of the entire region, and that of the rest of the world with it.
Feral, you are too clever as to really believe there is a single cause (oil) for this. Things are never that easy. Saying that the United States is there just because Iraq has oil is a slogan, short, easy to believe, easy to understand, buit not proven and, with all due respect, not very likely. You might say it is what makes the difference, but there is a difference between a condictio sine que non and a unique cause.
"No business being there". That's what most Americans thought of WWII remember? You do have a business being there. We all do. We have a business bringing freedom and economic prosperity (not that the US is doing that by sheer altruism, but it's still a benefitial side effect). The point is, as you said, that what you do is too similar to what the English did at their time. And the French. And the Spanish. Maybe because we did it before we don't see it all that bad. Maybe because we can see how we benefited from the French rule in the Napoleonic era, and how our own colonies did benefit themselves from our own, we don't hate it like that.
Independence is something countries should have when they are ready for it. Your people were ready for it at a time but the British couldn't see it and you had to fight to get it. Many countries were NOT ready when the Europeans left Asia and Africa and almost nobody could see it (or else they didn't have the will to act) and we are suffering the consequences of that hasty withdrawal. Luckily we all learn from our mistakes.
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Re: Another random collection of thoughts.
by Arthegarn on Jul 06, 2004 - 12:52 AM
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What I meant to say is that Independence is not an absolute value. Freedom is. Independence is a state thing, freedom is a people thing. I don't care the color of the flag flying over the Moncloa Palace as long as the Spanish people are free.
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