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Re: Another random collection of thoughts.
by feralucce (feralucce@wayoutonthecorner.com)
on Jul 05, 2004 - 11:18 AM
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Arthegarn,
Guam and Mariana's still use american currency... no longer a territory but a protectorate...
I was in iraq... serving... they NEVER wanted us there... I was shot by a 10 year old child who did not want us there... the statue coming down was staged... there were about 150 people in that square... on every strewet, the coalition of the willing is facing a group of people taht DO NOT WANT US THERE... we should not be where we are not welcome... frankly put..is it not our business to prevent civil war there... the ONLY reason for this is OIL...civil war is the business of the countrry that is waging it...
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Re: Another random collection of thoughts.
by Domkitten (saradevil@saradevil.com)
on Jul 05, 2004 - 01:06 PM
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Arthegarn,
A great deal of what you said is most assuredly true. Americans are frequently prone to sloganeering, and for good or ill, the average American very rarely thinks outside of the box long enough to listen to a well thought out and well put together argument. True enough. As a matter of fact I found this statement fairly apt:
It is a horrible misfortune that in the US you have to treat the people like children to get elected... and then to be able to exercise power. I'd really prefer the only superpower to be an Alpha-double-plus democracy, but sometimes it seems it's just a truckload of Epsilons who don't even vote.
If one pays any kind of attention to election politics you will hear regardless of the mainstream politian and political affiliation a middle of the road agenda that never quite comes close to being pro or con, and very rarely expresses any strong opinoin in one are or the other. Particularly in political speech they are all the same, no matter how their personal politics my differ, a real politician will never come out and tell you what they think or feel, they’ll just tell you what a handler told you to say, generally some slogan that can be easily remembered, or something that will make for a good sound bite on the late night news. That America is a society of uninformed, and unmotivated voters is no surprise, rarely do the apathetic feel there is a need for real change.
However, for good or ill, the political situation in America is very different from the preemptive ware strategy that we have taken in Iraq. To paraphrase :
What I mean is this: when you are in charge, sometimes a preemptive strike is necessary. If you have to explain everything until your people understand you are at a HUGE tactical disadvantage. So you... exaggerate... Trying to explain that the line between a insecticide plant and a chemical warfare one is very thin, that Iraq is the IDEAL place to start a western-like democracy ... You complain about your leaders not doing anything to prevent disasters like S-11, but when they do, you complain as well because they hadn't done anything! So should your government wait or not???)
I’m sorry, but I for one don’t think that it behooves the interests of the government not to lie to the people. Like it or not, attacks on the US will come. They have come before. There was a Pearl Harbor long before there was a 9/11. Regardless of your politics you cannot predict all the madmen in the world. However, should we say that because a man is mad, and because he came from a particular part of the world, that we are then justified with invading that part of the world to prevent him from striking.
Let’s say this for an example. Person A is a citizen of a country. He doesn’t like the person b, and the citizens of person b’s country, their politics, and the fact that in many ways person b is in a country that if managed properly could become more prosperous and wealthy then person a’s own country. Person a is a sadistic murdering lunatic, also, and he has murdered people in his own country with great success, and finding it easy to sway and influence other people has taken charge of a group with some nominal power, and allied himself with some friends of note who can help person a with a plane to blow up some buildings in an important business area of person b’s country. So person a and his group of friends do so, they attack, they destroy the country. Needless to say person b’s country is mighty pissed, so they then fight back, while also proclaiming to the world that they had done nothing wrong and can’t understand why they are being attacked in the first place.
Now let’s take this a little further and say that Person A is the US and Person B is Iraq. History, alas, has already been written, but can we say with certainty that had not 9/11 happened the Iraqi invasion would have happened anyway, no. We can however speculate that there was always some need to
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Re: Another random collection of thoughts.
by callei on Jul 05, 2004 - 01:31 PM
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Arth, much of the debate here isnt about Bush making choices without telling people in detail what he was considering and why. the anger is from being given false information (as in complete lies) and having reporters that tried to tell the truth thrown in jail with thier rights suspended to keep them silent. It has to do with the "prisons" that the Government is runnig that are torturing people, including teenagers (which america considers children so torturing them is child abuse) it has to do with the hubris behind the idea that we can set up a democracy of any sort somewhere else and somehow guarentee a free and honest election when we cant get one here in the US.
It has to do with treachery and deceit and money laundering. IT has to do with the fact that we seem to be unable to impeach (remove from office) a despot that stole the seat of power and has damamged our relations with, frankly our relations. Most americans are only 2 generations away from citizenship in another country. Most americans have cousins living somewhere else. This war has caused fights inside of families. Everyday people who never had a reason to fear thier government, are now scared to talk openly in bars.
We are worried about the people in Iraq, we are. we care. we know people are dying horrible deaths all over the world. but we are dying here too. and as a people, we would rahter our leaders be stupid and wrong than deceitful and cruel.
we want to be the good guys, at least we want to be the happy, loud, sort of aggressive but ready to make peace people. we want to be liked. we dont want to kill people. we dont want to die. we dont want to be liars and theives. we dont want to be the bully.
We cant back out and leave those people to starve and die. but we also cant stay since we know the people that are getting the benefit of all that tax money, the money we arent spending on teachers, medical care, roads, police officers, drug rehabilitation programs, reforestation, and so on, arent the Iraci people. we know they are G. Bush's friends and family. We KNOW that this has become a way for them to get more money at the cost of our country's happiness and security and at the cost of so many lives all over the world.
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